Well it's all an interesting debate. I have used lead free in one of my rifles. I tried four different ones before I found one that gave a reasonable group. OK to shoot but didn't give good results on animals sub 200 yds. So I use lead in that rifle at present and thankful that my two butchers still take lead shot animals. When the ban for lead use in rifles 6mm and above comes in I may have to resort to using something with shades of a former life.
Interesting open letter concerning the lead shot/ammunition ban
- Thread starter Spear Chucker
- Start date
I expect to see you placing a "wanted" ad for a .22 Hornet very soon.....
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Yes, but it took many many years of campaigning by sufferers of organophosphate poisoning before anyone would take them seriously. Until then, the link was considered "tenuous".
But your reply does kind of prove my point. You've immediately homed in on one of the other potential causes of my condition, rather than considered lead as a potential cause, because it suits your agenda better to do that.
(Personally, I'm inclined to think that my condition is just bad luck. I don't blame anything).
Until we have information available from properly conducted studies, we'll never know whether the consumption of lead particles from game meat has any significant affect on human health.
But of course, this isn't all about humans. The fact that the ingestion of lead particles by birds, mistakenly for grit, is harmful and usually fatal, is indisputable, and for that reason alone we should be seeking out alternatives to lead and using them wherever and whenever it is practical to do so.
The real problem about all this - as I mentioned before - is that although the writing has been on the wall for lead for at least 40 years, everyone's still been caught on the back foot. Product developers and manufacturers have had decades to prepare for this, and most have just sat on their arses and done nothing. Now they're forced to do everything in a rush at the last minute, and as with all rushed projects, the result is not perhaps as good as it should be.
Spear Chucker
Well-Known Member
Fair enough but there is, by extension "no known unsafe level" I would have a hard earned fiver on the chance that the damage caused by the average monthly consumption of processed and "junk" food by the children of the UK far outweighs the risks of their ingesting the odd lead pellet from all the game they eat...this is also about risk and probability of risk. I would expect that there is no known safe level of copper or bismuth either.
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It’s bad news for anyone suffering from any sort of degenerative health problems especially when suffered by those who have enjoyed an active outdoor life and that involvement is brought to a premature end. I can only sympathise with those affected. All the more reason for a thorough investigation of any factors that may cause these sorry eventualities.
It can hardly be said though that investigation into the factors surrounding lead ammunition has been robust and it looks more and more like a politically driven anti fieldsports agenda than any sincere welfare concerns.
Let’s face it where realistically is there any sincere concern for those consumers of lead shot game within anti lead shot campaigners likewise any genuine concern for game bird numbers which in the eyes of many in the anti field sports lobby only serve to help field sports continue.
Here’s hoping your own condition stabilises and allows you to continue your interests even if it is only in a more limited capacity.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
No, I'm not.
I'm just demonstrating how easy it is to find info to support a particular agenda.
I cited 3 completely different things that might potentially heighten the risk of contracting the condition from which I suffer, and I could have cited many more.
If I'd been anti lead ammo, I could have used that info to whip up a storm against lead among sufferers.
If I'd been anti organophosphate, I could have done likewise against sheep dipping.
And so on, and so on...
Just pick the one the suits the campaign I want to run, and hit all the relevant social media sites with it.
There are lots of social media groups specifically for sufferers of this condition, where people share experiences and seek advice on coping with the disease. I could get the whole lot of them to start campaigning against lead very easily, if I chose.
The Internet, and social media, is a very powerful tool for influencing large numbers of people quickly.
On the whole the fieldsports community is very poor at utilising this resource for our benefit, and quite naive about its potential to harm us, I think.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Ok, whatever
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Nah Tim, try up a couple got one I need already. Very sorry to hear of your problems, I guess I was probably made of different stuff as I have eaten lead shot food for probably 80 years. I was also dipped (not head).twice for cheek when I was about 10 or 11, it stung and they then hosed me off. Same farm where I started stalking .22 wise.I expect to see you placing a "wanted" ad for a .22 Hornet very soon.....
Yes, I absolutely agree on that!
As for the issue of lead ammunition itself, I am completely ambivalent. I have no agenda. I'm not fussed either way.
If it's there I'll use it, if it's not I will use something different, and if my venison customers start requesting it I'll change anyway even if lead is still available.
In the meantime, it's status quo for me.
But, I do think that shooters are not helping themselves in this debate, and that seems to be a recurrent theme whenever something like this crops up. Easy to blame BASC et al, while shooting themselves in the foot on social media.
If the fieldsports organisations aren't up to the job (as many on here believe they're not) then individual shooters really need to up their game and be a bit more savvy when it comes to trying to influence a wider audience.
I don't believe my problems are in any way linked to either lead shot game or sheep dip. I was just illustrating how easy it is to find info to support an agenda.
Spear Chucker
Well-Known Member
As far as I am aware, there has been no admission officially that there is a link. If there had been, the compensation claims would have been monstrous. I always felt tat the Government was playing for time, hoping that those affected were gone before a link was proven.
Utectok
Well-Known Member
I think that’s a slight misconception. I believe the intention of the quote is that no amount of lead in your system is safe. “Not no known unsafe level” all levels are unsafe. obviously more is worse but none should be the goal. It seems to me lead is soft and dissolves with mild acids and I’m not certain ingesting it or spreading it around fields that grow our food or letting it dilute into watercourses or being ingested by birds is really a good idea (as many USA shooters leave carcass's in the field there is good evidence of raptors becoming poisoned even by the small amount of lead in rifle bullets). Particularly as viable alternatives exist which do fine in some but not all cases of firearm use. To me that sounds like good sense but each to his own.
For the record
“ Copper levels in the body that cause harm can vary, but generally, copper toxicity occurs when blood copper levels exceed 140 mcg/dL. In Wilson's disease, a genetic condition, copper can accumulate in the liver, brain, and other organs, leading to various health problems, including liver damage, neurological symptoms, and psychiatric issues. High levels of copper in drinking water (above 3 mg/L) can also cause gastrointestinal issues in sensitive individuals. ”
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Smellydog
Well-Known Member
I had that but said no to antibiotics. I've hardly had any all my life in fact.
Organophosphate derivatives are basically nerve agents I believe, used in chemical warfare.
There is that much nasty chit about the metal form of lead is nothing by comparison.
I too have an auto immune condition. It started as a child before I ever shot a gun.
Spear Chucker
Well-Known Member
Really sorry to hear of your illness. Up to now i have been blessed with good health. It is easy to forget there are those among us with burdens in addition to those that life ordinarily lobs our way. I thought it might cheer you to hear that my wife just asked if there was a chance I might be out foxing on Tuesday. When I asked why, she said there is an electrical storm forecast for that evening. "I thought it might be my lucky day if you were in a high seat!". I have a funny feeling I may not make old bones, good health or not!
I have, for many years, had a premonition that it will be lightning that does for me in the end. That's one of the reasons why I don't let my current condition get me down: I know it won't be the death of me.
Ah but then when some turn out to have very low levels of lead in thier system folk on here might deliberately misquote them saying they have high levels in order to support a fanatical agenda …… who might that be
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