Swapping lead for bismuth in subsonic cartridges

[Trickyd66]

So... if the proposed ban on lead shot ever materialises.
I have a reasonable stock of 410 subsonic cartridges for my old bolt action 410.
The question is, if I was to empty the lead shot and replace with bismuth, would they still be subsonic (bismuth being lighter than lead, so in theory traveling faster) ?
Any thoughts?

 

[Trickyd66]

Anyone know?

 

[User00056]

Difficult to say really. With them being lighter you would think so. But then you won't get the same pressures as with lead as they'll need less energy to get them moving, so that might even mean they're slower, especially if you need to redo a factory crimp

 

[Smellydog]

Don't know, probably.
Got to ask...has it got to be subsonic?

 

[Trickyd66]

Don't know, probably.
Got to ask...has it got to be subsonic?

Ideally. Whole purpose of my 410 is for "quiet" work.

 

[Trickyd66]

Difficult to say really. With them being lighter you would think so. But then you won't get the same pressures as with lead as they'll need less energy to get them moving, so that might even mean they're slower, especially if you need to redo a factory crimp

Might be a case of suck it and see. Was gifted a box of 12G bismuth which I don't need to use as steel ok in the 12, so may sacrifice a few to try out before buying loose bismuth.

 

[Smellydog]

Ideally. Whole purpose of my 410 is for "quiet" work.

Ok but they are still pretty quiet. For poaching a windy night is best.
Anyway.
When you've took the lead out feel free to forward it on to me for careful disposal in the Shropshire countryside ( up yous Bill H) totally free to you of course.

 

[Trickyd66]

Ok but they are still pretty quiet. For poaching a windy night is best.
Anyway.
When you've took the lead out feel free to forward it on to me for careful disposal in the Shropshire countryside ( up yous Bill H) totally free to you of course.

Happy to send it to you as ballast for your model boats

 

[Smellydog]

Happy to send it to you as ballast for your model boats

Don't think I can use it over water!

 

[Dalua]

Don't think I can use it over water!

I don't think the bath counts - so should be fine.

 

[bullet chucker]

My pal recently bought some lead ballast for his boat?

BC.

 

[Smellydog]

I don't think the bath counts - so should be fine.

Yeah but what about the rubber ducks!!!

 

[Dalua]

Yeah but what about the rubber ducks!!!

Wear saftey-glasses - ricochet risk.

 

[Bowland blades]

Any component change will produce a different result regards pressure. Unlike rifle loading we do not work up a load , instead we use exact data and keep to that load. You get your loads from published data in guides OR you build what you feel will be correct ( best guess) and send it off to pressure testing . This means proof houses or one of two cartridge makers.
Steel works fine but shot can and does bounce back off trees, stones etc . I have been hit and my daughter has been ( its painful and in a eye you will likely loose it ) Shooting glasses at all times !

 

[Trickyd66]

Any component change will produce a different result regards pressure. Unlike rifle loading we do not work up a load , instead we use exact data and keep to that load. You get your loads from published data in guides OR you build what you feel will be correct ( best guess) and send it off to pressure testing . This means proof houses or one of two cartridge makers.
Steel works fine but shot can and does bounce back off trees, stones etc . I have been hit and my daughter has been ( its painful and in a eye you will likely loose it ) Shooting glasses at all times !

Nothing whatsoever against steel in 12 gauge, but with pretty much full choke and preasure markings that suggest I probably shouldn't even be using modern lead cartridges, I would rather explore other options. (Not even sure if subsonic steel are available in any gauge?)
Edit. Looks like 12G subsonic steel are available, but the chances of them producing subsonic 410 are slim due to the limited market.

 

[timbrayford]

Nothing whatsoever against steel in 12 gauge, but with pretty much full choke and preasure markings that suggest I probably shouldn't even be using modern lead cartridges, I would rather explore other options. (Not even sure if subsonic steel are available in any gauge?)

N/A in 20 bore!

 

[Trickyd66]

N/A in 20 bore!

Wonder if folkestone would work up a home load for bismuth?

 

[timbrayford]

Wonder if folkestone would work up a home load for bismuth?

Sort of thinking along the same lines myself, I enjoy using a 20 bore for its light weight, low noise and recoil.

 

[Bowland blades]

Nothing whatsoever against steel in 12 gauge, but with pretty much full choke and preasure markings that suggest I probably shouldn't even be using modern lead cartridges, I would rather explore other options. (Not even sure if subsonic steel are available in any gauge?)
Edit. Looks like 12G subsonic steel are available, but the chances of them producing subsonic 410 are slim due to the limited market.

Not sure why you copied me in on your reply . That said i have been home loading 10 bores , std light 12 bore up to heavy 3 1/2" twelves and ten bores in steel . on Fox drives, wildfowling , game days and simple walk about rough shooting . My Daughter was dropping geese on the foreshore with her 3" shells .
410 do work but nothing like it did with lead and as i constantly warn folks ( steel comes back at you ) Pessonaly i have been hit by rebounding shot from trees with enough speed / energy to break through skin into flesh an eye is too grave a risk to loose .
Bismuth 3 1/2" goose loads have done their job and it tends to stop a lot of " hope and pray high geese " at the cost alone .
My own change to none toxic shot shells happened well sometime longer than ten years , perhaps over 15 years back . Of course Bismuth will kill but its not really cost effective homeloaders making hand loads make it tolerable

 

[Bowland blades]

N/A in 20 bore!

Pretty sure the higher flying geese I pulled down where hit with steel that had dropped below the speed of sound . The issue with steel overall is the fact it looses speed faster in flight than lead of course. Sub Sonic BBB steel brought 'em down none the less .
My Daughter struggled with her 20 bore steel at times , dropping geese in the head/ neck regions . Looked dead then often as the dog got close they took off . Simple fact is " we might need to keep away from stretching the range " doing something over and over " that fails " is of course daft . Likewise shoot the in the front not the rear . If it helps my Daughter used 3" Number 1 steel from Winchester . Lots of folks will shoot their geese and duck with number 1 steel ( as we have been unable to shoot foreshore with any lead in England and Wales for a long time now!