6.5mm vs 7mm vs .30 cal
- Thread starter Selous
- Start date
I've just loved to 101grn Barnes lrx at avg 3210fps but only shot one roe so far at 150 yards... didn't know I was there and ran 3pyds before collapsing at a fence .. shot placement i was your typical half way up body up rear of front leg into forward half of lungs... think I'll have more to morenup front of forward leg ...An interesting thesis @sauer , and i do think you might be onto something with the speed vs mass relation being of some importance hereNathan Foster i believe also has some similar thoughts: Effective Game Killing
But trying to get a bit more into this theory, may i ask about your:
- Typical muzzle velocity:
-Estimated terminal velocity (if we say that an average bullet slows about 250 fps/100 yards):
-Bullet weight and type:
- Typical shot placement:
-Typical terminal
Previous loads was 87grn speed hotcore at around 3300fps
Mostly anything out to 250yds
And carcass wise the 1x roe on 101grn lrx copper same as the 87grn speer ...by going in behind shoulder I lost rib cage usually
Bit got 80/90% of shoulders
Paul
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Interesting! Because as i remember fosters writings, he is of the belief that hydrostatic shock for mid sized calibers, (which all of these pertain to, i'd say), strongly loses it's effect going under 2600 fps in TV. So if your TV in the 6.5 is around 2500 fps, that could be a factor.
After that i think NS points too that other factors will then be the main drivers of terminal performance. Factors such as hydraulic shock, the width, depth and of course placement of the permanent wound channel, possible fragementation of the bullet or splintered bone etc.
So NF as i understand him very much believes in HS effectiveness, but is vary of its reliance on bullet impact speed, surface area of the bullet and mass for it's creation.
However on the somewhat flip side of that, another very experienced and seemingly fairly observant hunter, like Ron Spomer, who has also used a lot of different calibers on game, says the claimed knock down effect of some quick cartridges to his experience is a best inconsistent.
Personally i suspect that both men are onto something, and that NS might be right in that the force of the hydostratic shock for a given round upon game is indeed a mix of impact speed vs mass vs surface area of the bullet upon impact, but that Spomer might also be onto something about that the effect of HS effect is not always consistent.
I theorize,quite amateurishly i freely admit, that the variance in effect observed by spomer might be down the difference in size/volume/stoutness of the game absorbing that HS effect + the placement of the shot (vs important areas of the nervous system) and the strength of the HS wave. I can imagine that for the nervous tissue to suffer the necessary critical damage, all of those things might need to be right, all in all making it somewhat unreliable as a quick KO tool.
Other ways of hitting the nervous system, such as the the high shoulder shot or the Hilar shot are probably more reliable ways of doing somewhat the same as what HS does, as i imagine that their induced damage to the Nervous system of the beast is mainly caused by the wound channel itself and not a harder to predict shock wave effect.
But i am just spinning theory here, - nothing more.
@Selous I know you are aware of my findings but for the sake of the conversation I will play. I use 6.5 swede with 100g TTSX at 3350, the exact same as you in .308 (who’d of thunk it 
) and I have yet to use copper in my 7mm RM but currently on lead.
The swede in this format is a great and swift killer, bang flops are fairly regular on roe, short 20m trundles on reds, including stags up to 150kg body weight, multiples around 90-100kg. But….you guessed it next to no blood trails. Also curiously occasional double exits (sheared petals?), but usually very neat exits.
This is a very different 6.5 setup to yours from a whopping great 26” tube and a really high MV which I think just flattens roe. It’s possibly a slight anomaly. I would trust this setup on any UK game.
The .308 with 130g TTSX produces more runners on roe that the 6.5 despite the extra horsepower. My guess is not enough deer to make the bullet expand compared to the 6.5. I could rectify this by pinning them but tbh the runs are usually short. The blood trails are usually faint but present, I used a box of 150g SSTs recently and couldn’t believe the difference. The ability for this round to exit a carcass is unbelievable, as you witnessed a week or so ago on a big, big stag and reasonable range. Impressive. I shot a similar stag in the same area in 2012 with a 150g .308 Nosler and it didn’t exit. It was half the range.
The only thing my 308 with TTSX didn’t exit was a big sika neck shot front on, it was lodged in the skin on the back of the neck, mushroomed perfectly, job done.
I will have some information for you shortly on the 7mm. 132 peregrine at 3460fps. Should work….
) and I have yet to use copper in my 7mm RM but currently on lead. The swede in this format is a great and swift killer, bang flops are fairly regular on roe, short 20m trundles on reds, including stags up to 150kg body weight, multiples around 90-100kg. But….you guessed it next to no blood trails. Also curiously occasional double exits (sheared petals?), but usually very neat exits.
This is a very different 6.5 setup to yours from a whopping great 26” tube and a really high MV which I think just flattens roe. It’s possibly a slight anomaly. I would trust this setup on any UK game.
The .308 with 130g TTSX produces more runners on roe that the 6.5 despite the extra horsepower. My guess is not enough deer to make the bullet expand compared to the 6.5. I could rectify this by pinning them but tbh the runs are usually short. The blood trails are usually faint but present, I used a box of 150g SSTs recently and couldn’t believe the difference. The ability for this round to exit a carcass is unbelievable, as you witnessed a week or so ago on a big, big stag and reasonable range. Impressive. I shot a similar stag in the same area in 2012 with a 150g .308 Nosler and it didn’t exit. It was half the range.
The only thing my 308 with TTSX didn’t exit was a big sika neck shot front on, it was lodged in the skin on the back of the neck, mushroomed perfectly, job done.
I will have some information for you shortly on the 7mm. 132 peregrine at 3460fps. Should work….
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I was thing
i was thinking of trying the same 132 grain peregrine in my 7 SAUM. 130 grain yew trees at 3300 have been accurate but even out to 350m on roe are .. explosive.@Selous I know you are aware of my findings but for the sake of the conversation I will play. I use 6.5 swede with 100g TTSX at 3350, the exact same as you in .308 (who’d of thunk it
The swede in this format is a great and swift killer, bang flops are fairly regular on roe, short 20m trundles on reds, including stags up to 150kg body weight, multiples around 90-100kg. But….you guessed it next to no blood trails. Also curiously occasional double exits (sheared petals?), but usually very neat exits.
This is a very different 6.5 setup to yours from a whopping great 26” tube and a really high MV which I think just flattens roe. It’s possibly a slight anomaly. I would trust this setup on any UK game.
The .308 with 130g TTSX produces more runners on roe that the 6.5 despite the extra horsepower. My guess is not enough deer to make the bullet expand compared to the 6.5. I could rectify this by pinning them but tbh the runs are usually short. The blood trails are usually faint but present, I used a box of 150g SSTs recently and couldn’t believe the difference. The ability for this round to exit a carcass is unbelievable, as you witnessed a week or so ago on a big, big stag and reasonable range. Impressive. I shot a similar stag in the same area in 2012 with a 150g .308 Nosler and it didn’t exit. It was half the range.
The only thing my 308 with TTSX didn’t exit was a big sika neck shot front on, it was lodged in the skin on the back of the neck, mushroomed perfectly, job done.
I will have some information for you shortly on the 7mm. 132 peregrine at 3460fps. Should work….
I have 5 days on sika stags coming up in october, I shall report back
Perfect thanks most grateful!
Scipio
Well-Known Member
First of all thank you guys for all of these real world feed backs to the thread, they are most interesting
As for this feedback, yeah, this is also my thinking. A high TV can maybe be conducent to KO potential but to your experience, at what TV does a quick bullet start to become counter productive with regards to the excessive meat damage done (with regular shot placement) vs the (potential) extra ko power it brings ?
Also, getting back to the main subject of the thread, what is this phenomenon of even the quick 6.5s described above not creating blood trails, even with clear exit wounds? Are people experiencing the same, when using quick 25 cals for example, or 6mms with similar shot placement?
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RescueMe0007
Well-Known Member
My admittedly limited experience suggests that the alert level of the animal is a significant factor. I'm shooting either Sika or Fallow. If the animal is alert, head up, (especially if it's on its toes) it'll run, even if a well placed shot (behind the shoulder). If I catch them unawares with the same shot they're bowled over, they may struggle a little but expire quickly. I'm using a 6.5x55 (either 130 or 140 gr jacketed, ballistic tip, rounds). My buddy is using soft point 95 gr, .243, he generally drops them where they stand, but he favours neck shots just in front of the chest, he almost never gets a runner, unless he misses his mark.
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Hello mate, thanks for the input, and yep, another very good point on what may affect terminal performance of a given bullet on game.My admittedly limited experience suggests that the alert level of the animal is a significant factor. I'm shooting either Sika or Fallow. If the animal is alert, head up, (especially if it's on its toes) it'll run, even if a well placed shot (behind the shoulder). If I catch them unawares with the same shot they're bowled over, they may struggle a little but expire quickly. I'm using a 6.5x55 (either 130 or 140 gr jacketed, ballistic tip, rounds). My buddy is using soft point 95 gr, .243, he generally drops them where they stand, but he favours neck shots just in front of the chest, he almost never gets a runner, unless he misses his mark.
As for your mate, it sounds like he is chosing to obtain KO power by breaking the spine at the base of the neck, so a cns kill.
Well made hilar and high shoulder shots also does this, as does a brain shot of course, (risky as they are for some to make!) . I guess the hilar or high shoulder shot does leave more margin for error, than the base of the neck shot. I guess practicing and having all of these options in the shot repetoir give the hunter the largest amount of possibility to make an ethical kill shot.
I am pretty sure that it is velocity getting the results with your 6.5. It’s got an extra 350fps on my current loading which is significant. I also suspect that the reduced sectional density of the 100g bullets compared to the 120g bullets allows more energy to be transmitted to tissues before the bullet exits. I also suspect the frontal area of the 100g TTSX will be similar to the 120grain. Essentially it is possible that the only advantage of increasing bullet weight is that momentum and therefore penetration is increased. Perhaps the 120g TTSX is too heavy for optimal energy transfer? Unfortunately my barrel scattered the 100 grain bullets like a blunderbuss@Selous I know you are aware of my findings but for the sake of the conversation I will play. I use 6.5 swede with 100g TTSX at 3350, the exact same as you in .308 (who’d of thunk it
The swede in this format is a great and swift killer, bang flops are fairly regular on roe, short 20m trundles on reds, including stags up to 150kg body weight, multiples around 90-100kg. But….you guessed it next to no blood trails. Also curiously occasional double exits (sheared petals?), but usually very neat exits.
This is a very different 6.5 setup to yours from a whopping great 26” tube and a really high MV which I think just flattens roe. It’s possibly a slight anomaly. I would trust this setup on any UK game.
The .308 with 130g TTSX produces more runners on roe that the 6.5 despite the extra horsepower. My guess is not enough deer to make the bullet expand compared to the 6.5. I could rectify this by pinning them but tbh the runs are usually short. The blood trails are usually faint but present, I used a box of 150g SSTs recently and couldn’t believe the difference. The ability for this round to exit a carcass is unbelievable, as you witnessed a week or so ago on a big, big stag and reasonable range. Impressive. I shot a similar stag in the same area in 2012 with a 150g .308 Nosler and it didn’t exit. It was half the range.
The only thing my 308 with TTSX didn’t exit was a big sika neck shot front on, it was lodged in the skin on the back of the neck, mushroomed perfectly, job done.
I will have some information for you shortly on the 7mm. 132 peregrine at 3460fps. Should work….
I may need to try something different….. like a 30-06!!
My steady state recipes all from 20" barrels (Sako & Tikka):
No lost animals and only minimal runs. Variation attributed to shot placement variations. Typically using HILAR placement.
Calibre | TTSX Bullet Weight (gr) | SD | Powder | Load (gr) | Muzzle Velocity (fps) | Muzzle Energy (ft lb) |
.243 | 80 | 0.194 | IMR4895 | 39 | 3134 | 1744 |
.270 | 110 | 0.205 | N135 | 49.5 | 3143 | 2413 |
.308 | 130 | 0.196 | IMR4895 | 47 | 2945 | 2503 |
No lost animals and only minimal runs. Variation attributed to shot placement variations. Typically using HILAR placement.
Scipio
Well-Known Member
All good points although it Sucks that the accuracy wasn't there with the 100 grns.I am pretty sure that it is velocity getting the results with your 6.5. It’s got an extra 350fps on my current loading which is significant. I also suspect that the reduced sectional density of the 100g bullets compared to the 120g bullets allows more energy to be transmitted to tissues before the bullet exits. I also suspect the frontal area of the 100g TTSX will be similar to the 120grain. Essentially it is possible that the only advantage of increasing bullet weight is that momentum and therefore penetration is increased. Perhaps the 120g TTSX is too heavy for optimal energy transfer? Unfortunately my barrel scattered the 100 grain bullets like a blunderbuss
I may need to try something different….. like a 30-06!!
Maybe try another brand of 100 grns or maybe go to Flat base bullets even, if possible . I've seen and read it reported that FB bullets are at times easier to get to shoot well.
I have other 6.5 bullets to try…. I just thought the direct comparison to other calibres using similar weight TTSX was interesting.All good points although it Sucks that the accuracy wasn't there with the 100 grns.
Maybe try another brand of 100 grns or maybe go to Flat base bullets even, if possible . I've seen and read it reported that FB bullets are at times easier to get to shoot well.
In truth as many here know I am a proponent of larger calibres and a 30-06 will probably become my daily workhorse
It is very interesting particularly if you shoot 7mm calibres like me and are still trying to finalise copper loads.
Question for others on here - are those shooting creedmores having problems with TTSX? I doubt 3000 gps is easily achievable in the CM? Are CM users employing other copper bullets?
6pt-sika
Well-Known Member
The thing about what drops them on the spot better is a relative thing . I found with the 444 and 45-70 generally my homecast bullets hammered them more often than jacketed bullets . And over the course of fifty years I’ve used most all of the 6.5mm cartridges as well as the 7mm cartridges and atleast 75% of the 30 cal cartridges as well as a host of other calibers . The first year the 300 SAUM came out I got one in a Model 7 stainless synthetic and I already had a 260 in a Model 7 also stainless synthetic . That year I killed three bucks with each rifle of the six four dropped on the spot one went about 25 yards after the shot and the other went I’d say about 75 yards and dropped all got popped thru the heart pretty much broadside . Bear in mind the 300 SAUM is 30-06 with a touch of Tabasco anyway the one’s with the 260 two dropped and one went 25 yards the ones with 300 had the 75 yard runner . Of the four that dropped I didn’t time them to see which hit the ground quicker . These were all whitetails any mule deer I’ve killed were done in with a 7mm REM Mag any sika I’ve done in were with a bow a ML a slug shotgun a 7mm-08 or a 260 . I dare say out of the MS stutzens I seem to use the most the 30-06 , 308 and 270 will be first to go then the 243 and I’ll keep the 6.5x54 MS and 7x57 as long as possible .
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Flat base bullets have always been easier to get to shoot well. Indeed i believe many bench rest shooters use them for that very reason. Boat tail bullets where initially developed in the military for machine gun use so as to maintain more energy out towards and beyond 1,000 yards.All good points although it Sucks that the accuracy wasn't there with the 100 grns.
Maybe try another brand of 100 grns or maybe go to Flat base bullets even, if possible . I've seen and read it reported that FB bullets are at times easier to get to shoot well.
With copper bullets, boat tails add length, which in a less dense bullet and slower twist rates may not help with accuracy.
Coming back to velocities, I am using the factory load data for Fox ammunition in my 243 (80gn) and 7x57 (130 gn). According to Fox’s published data the 243 is still doing 829 m/s, 1781 Joules at 150m, whilst the 7x57 is trundling along at 716 m/s with 2150 m/s.
What I have noticed after shooting several Roe and Red with both cartridges.
1) the 243 tends to give more runners, not bad but a few do go out a few yards. The 7x57 seems to knock them off their feet
2) the 243 does leave a lot of bruising / blood shot meat, especially at closer ranges. The 7x57 on the other hand leaves a very clean carcass with minimal waste.
I suspect given the similar bullet construction and BC that if I pushed the 7mm 130gn bullet at just under 1,000 m/s (3,200 ish fps) MV I would get quite a lot more bruising in the carcass, likewise if I dropped the 243 back a bit I would get a lot less.
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Hello mate , yes,for increased terminal effect, it could seem a good option.
Especially if one shoots more behind the front legs, than fwds of them. Depending on how high speeds the bullet impacts with, it might give some meat damage issues though.But as long as the hunter takes these choices with their eyes open, it is their choice, of course.
This said, sometimes the choice it not the hunters, as some countries, like Sweden for example, wont allow for 100 grn coppers for deer sized game, setting a min bullet weight of 7.7 gram/118,8 grn across all calibers. Obviously this seems a bit unthought through, as this leaves a 130 30 cl legal, whilst 100 grn 6.5 option becomes illegal even though i suspect those end up being more or less on par sectional density and speed wise.
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