DMC Level 3
- Thread starter Cranborne
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timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Sour grapes?Interesting comment in the BDS Deerbytes today
@Deerkeeper2 no reply … how odd
Deerkeeper2
Well-Known Member
What did you want me to say? Sorry but this response from you just highlights that you’re just looking for an argument rather than having anything meaningful to contribute.
Really ? I made a point about courses being money making schemes and you replied that I “ hate “ all in the deer industry even though I pointed out that someone adding a new course is nothing dmq haven’t done ? who’s looking for arguments sir ?
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TommyPro555
Well-Known Member
Met the man once - and formed an immediate opinion. So, dmc l3 confirms my initial misgivings. Seeing that BDS/BASC's position is - and I quote from BDS: "the BDS confirms that neither we nor our partners were consulted on the course content, and we have no involvement in its development or promotion. We also do not endorse claims that it “brings together qualifications and experience from all respected training providers,”.
Enough said - save your money and stop chasing paper...
Enough said - save your money and stop chasing paper...
@Chris Richardson
Looking at all of England and all of its deer species, what changes would you like to see that could improve the management of deer populations?
Looking at all of England and all of its deer species, what changes would you like to see that could improve the management of deer populations?
I agree full stop regardless of the provider of such paper
Personally I don’t think the current system works ! Looks at how many “ qualified “ stalkers we have ? Yet sky rocketing deer population…. Clear to me the system doesn’t work , while ever we have landowners that either have zero stalking on they’re land or someone who comes once every 3 months it’s not going to work , I think harsher criteria for forestry grants as regards deer numbers would be better however it would be difficult to enforce as you can imagine, personally I’d do away with syndicates too I think very few of them make any reasonable impact on deer numbers
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
A few years ago the BDS looked at creating DSC 3 but opting instead to introduce their own CPD bronze, silver and gold awards, there hasn't been any news on them for a while, perhaps the idea never caught on?
And yet no backlash against them how odd
What would your suggestions be ?
Having been responsible for BDS Training for five years more than 2 decades ago I would like to say that the BDS motives at the time were honourable, AND I believe remain so.
The whole training system evolved and was designed to act analogously to the Yacht Master Certificate; that is voluntary and as a qualification that may lead to a lower insurance cost for the holder. That was in the 1980s. In the 1990s many came on the courses and it did generate funds for the Society which were spent on the other 2 charitable objects - namely Research and Education - Training being the third leg of that stool.
In the late 1990s and early 2000s DMQ appeared on the scene and became increasingly dictatorial, largely to do with quality control issues. For entirely separate reasons I resigned in 2004 (for leaving heads and legs above ground from a Park cull at the time my late Father was dying - clearly not Best Practice). In the many years since I have heard of other course providers being lax with their quality control and that devalues the whole system for everyone; the good and conscientious as well as the corrupt. This @Chris Richardson I suggest is why you probably feel so negative about the whole training system and those who try to run it.
I got involved in Training because I had been well taught as a youngster, believed that we needed more stalkers to kill more deer, and still do so. There is no substitute for rifle/man/hours on the ground to reduce deer densities if we are not to go the (indiscriminate) poisons route or to interfere with natural reproduction by chemical means. I do believe in management of herds and trying to replicate, as far as we are able, natural predation - i.e. a lot of young of the year, a lot of young males, and taking as many older (and middle aged) females as we can where necessary. [Hoffman Pyramid population modelling and all that.]
In answer to your first question is "yes" they are not all tarred with the same brush as pure moneymakers; and to your second statement it is the lowland populations of deer which are growing. The Highland red deer numbers reached their highest in the mid 1990s and have been reducing since. It is woodland plantation and lowland populations which continue to increase along with peri-urban deer. Sanctuary provided by well meaning people and organisations is in part at fault in this. Many county Trusts for Nature Conservation do not cull deer, some do, many don't. The RSPB do in a few places as do the National Trust (in E & W), but there are very many private modern landowning individuals who create areas of sanctuary analogous to the LACS owned Baronsdown on Exmmor, where artificially high numbers of deer congregate (leading in turn to other and even occasionally welfare problems - worm burdens at Baronsdown). additionally culling in areas of high population density (people) is difficult to do safely and without attracting aggressive and unwanted attention.
Where I do agree with you is that forestry grant aiding bodies should be robust in reclaiming grants for failed planting and ending leases of syndicates failing to make their culls. BUT we don't do enforcement very well in this country - our politicians love to make law - not to ensure it is enforced - look at water companies, shop-lifting, drug importation, people smuggling, waste disposal, ............. I could rant on for a while.
thank you for your reply , we’re in agreement on a good many things and yes I agree as regards highland deer population numbers vs lowland that’s very true, whilst I agree more deer need to be culled ( especially in lowland populations) it’s pretty clear to me that training courses aren’t succeeding in the objective
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A charity can't subsidise its members, it has to stay in the black.
I suspect the RFD, Garage, Shop etc etc you use all make a profit, it's the way the world is.
We can all have misgivings about these various bits of paper. I did all of them that were in vogue at the time.
I rose to the dizzy heights of training and being an AW. However the stupidity shown by both BASC and BDS regarding making AW's pay for that privilege (never carried through) made me decide to give them all the middle finger salute.
I like to keep an open mind to all opportunities to change things, especially as I don't have any real knowledge or experience of anything other than fallow in the south of England.
Down here, I agree, the current system isn't working and landowners who don't allow shooting or who do not keep on top of the culls by their stalkers are a big problem. Certainly, enforcement of grant schemes is really important. I think that a shake up of legislation is needed and, ultimately, I think that we need regional Govt bodies to enforce appropriate culling over particular landscape types, which could encompass more fallow or fewer roe in my region. But, that's not going to happen, so there has to be another way to influence stalkers and landowners. One of them, in my view, is education. You mention the number 'qualified' stalkers but I don't really know what that means.
I think that ongoing CPD and education in Deer Management (but not stalking as in DSC1/2 etc) has a really important role. We need to shake up our thinking about deer impacts and take it beyond signs of grazing and browsing in woodland. Understand population dynamics better. All of this stuff changes the way someone thinks about their approach to culling. And has the potential to allow the stalkers to influence their landowners. This isn't 'the solution' by a long chalk but it is, in my view, an important contribution.
That said, I have no particular enthusiasm for the DMC3 qualification and only see it as relevant to people who have related employment outside stalking. Having attended a BDS Deer Management Course a few years ago, I would say that the whole content needs bringing up to date but I genuinely think the intent is there and nonetheless is worthwhile.
My point being is there are over 30000 “ qualified “ dsc 1 trained stalkers yet deer numbers are too high this alone proves my point that the training system is not working I realise some may not be stalkers and have to do the course for a related job but I think these are very much in the minority
I agree witha lot of your last two posts Chris and unfortunately landowners can be the major problem. In our area of South Lincs we have a landowner who harbours in a sanctuary anywhere between 1000 and 3000 Fallow deer (allegedly). I know it's over 1000 because my wife and I counted one fieldfull on one occasion. They allow one stalker in on the odd occasion to shoot a few (and it is a few). This has an effect on the whole area and we can cull a lot of animals on local land, but the holes are immediately filled from a reservoir like this. Something needs to be done.
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