Want to better understand terminal ballistics for deer stalking - where to look

[TheOldTool]

Hi, as title - I am a newcomer to the subject, using a 6.5mm creedmoor and .308. I want to read up and better understand terminal ballistics and the pros and cons in relation to carcass damage, kill certainty and suitability for stalking on Roe and Fallow at ranges out to 300m. Where is a good place to start? I have done some googling and found lots of forum posts etc but a lot are between people who have a knowledge base I don’t yet have. I am after some starter reading or viewing and some pointers for stuff after that. Thanks…….

 

[Mungo]

Nathan Foster’s website (Terminal Ballistics Research) is informative - though I’m not sure he’s been updating it much recently, and I don’t think there’s an entry for 6.5 Creedmoor.

He also produced a book that goes into a lot of detail on exactly what you’re asking about - and you used to be able to buy an electronic copy directly from his website.

He’s a slightly divisive figure, with some idiosyncratic views - but he has done a lot of testing and makes his interpretations accessible.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

The Entire Nathan Foster Collection

These books draw on the vast experience of Nathan Foster and educate the reader about the areas of cartridge selection, long range rifles, rifle accurizing, rifle maintenance, reloading and long range shooting.

www.ballisticstudies.com

Is one option.

Regards

JCS

 

[Stumpy2]

The terminal ballistics of the 6.5 Creedmoor are just the same as a .260 Remington or 6.5x55 with the same bullet at the same velocity.

Your bullet construction, and placement will have more influence on carcass damage.

Enjoy reading around the subject

 

[Mr. Gain]

Your question leads me to propose the following:

Proposition 1. Cartridge choice doesn't matter as much as bullet choice.

Proposition 2. Bullet choice doesn't matter as much as shot placement.

Proposition 3. Consistently accurate shooting is key to minimising carcass damage while maximising lethality.

Proposition 4. your time will be best spent on whatever makes you better at hitting what you're aiming at. (Though, by all means research terminal ballistics for its own sake.)

Proposition 5. It is no less important to gain an understanding the habits of deer, and of how to exploit them to put yourself within range.

Proposition 6. Every deer you take down will teach you something interesting about how bullets behave on impact.

 

[Donkey Basher]

As per Proposition 6 above, as well as teaching you how bullets perform on impact, each animal you shoot will teach you that deer do not read books - they have no idea how they are supposed to react to getting shot, especially if they’re Sika.

Have a read of my post below - two fallow deer shot one straight after the other at the same distance with pretty near identical bullet placement with identical bullets fired from the same rifle.

Thread 'Bang flop vs Bang ‘wtf’ 😳 & an old dog saves the day!'

Jan 2, 2026

First of all, HNY to all

Despite still having the tail end of the dreaded lurgy, and still recovering from a nerve issue in my neck, I resolved that I’d get out in the morning on 1 to start 2026 off with a bang.

Dark o’clock saw me nice & settled in a raised ground blind that has a view over a pasture between two woods to the front, a nice wide ride to one side & some regen to the other. The thermal showed a couple of Muntjac at the far end of the ride but too far to do anything other than note their presence. There was a could have small heat sources in the pasture which I assumed to...

• Donkey Basher
• Replies: 31
• Forum: Deer Stalking General

• 
• 

Propositions 1-5 are also all valid points

 

[25 Sharps]

Hi, as title - I am a newcomer to the subject, using a 6.5mm creedmoor and .308. I want to read up and better understand terminal ballistics and the pros and cons in relation to carcass damage, kill certainty and suitability for stalking on Roe and Fallow at ranges out to 300m. Where is a good place to start? I have done some googling and found lots of forum posts etc but a lot are between people who have a knowledge base I don’t yet have. I am after some starter reading or viewing and some pointers for stuff after that. Thanks…….

As above, shot placement and bullet construction are key, either of the cartridges you propose will happily put the deer on the deck with sensible damage and in a humane way, with the correct bullet in the correct place.

As I new stalker I would necessarily be looking to 300 metres to begin with, even if you’re an accomplished target shooter, the kill zone on a roe is relatively small and it doesn’t take much for it to go wrong at any range but pricy lay as you get out past 200 yards. As an experiment a few years back on one club meet we put one of the Bushwear roe targets at 300 yards at Bisley, on a wet and windy day . Many people failed to hit the deer, first shot and some that did didn’t hit the kill zone (myself included, though I’ve improved a lot!)

You want a hunting, rather then a varmint bullet, doesn’t matter if it’s a ballistic tip, hollow or soft point it needs to be designed to hold together and have a relatively thick jacket- the opposite of a varmint bullet.

 

[Heym SR20]

Nathan Foster is good. But for a novice have a look at the best practice guides on deer stalking.

You want severely one, other of both of the Central Nervous System and blood supply to all the organs.

An animal will loose consciousness if the CNS is impacted / shocked etc. whack a deer over the head, or back or on the shoulder blades and it will be stunned. Destroy the core part of the CNS it will never regain consciousness, but technically it will still be alive as the heart and lungs will function for a while.

Destroy the heart and the major blood vessels that connect it to the rest of the organs, or destroy a major artery in the brain, liver or leg, the animal will quickly bleed out, and the organs will stop functioning through lack of oxygen and death follows shortly after.

If you look at the anatomy of a deer and the recommended shot placement you will see that the all cause terminal damage to the CNS and/or major blood vessels around the heart and lungs.

Many of the major organs - heart and lungs in particular are well protected by ribs, shoulder blades, forelegs as well as skin, fat and muscle.

The bullet, arrow, knife, spear or horn needs to get through all of that to kill quickly and efficiently.

Men, ever since we became a hunters have spent the last 100,000 years plus sitting around a fire discussing which particular projectile is better than the other.

“Better” is a very subjective point of view. If you shoot on open ground, you might happily let an animal run fir a while so as to maximise meat that you take off the carcass. If its an incoming charging buffalo that desires to put a horn through your vitals you might have different criteria.

The late Don Heath with Norma did a very good set of videos a few years ago on this subject on YouTube - don’t know whether they still are there.

 

[angusb1]

Nathan Foster’s website (Terminal Ballistics Research) is informative - though I’m not sure he’s been updating it much recently, and I don’t think there’s an entry for 6.5 Creedmoor.

He also produced a book that goes into a lot of detail on exactly what you’re asking about - and you used to be able to buy an electronic copy directly from his website.

He’s a slightly divisive figure, with some idiosyncratic views - but he has done a lot of testing and makes his interpretations accessible.

Nathan Foster, his wife, and the people they have led on guided hunts, have shot more deer and recorded and published the findings on terminal ballistics than pretty much anyone. His website, especially the knowledge base, is well worth a read. As has been said the articles on the 6.5x55 are very relevant to the 6.5 Creedmoor

Extensive Field-Tested Rifle & Cartridge Research - BallisticStudies.com

 

[TheOldTool]

Thanks all. Read Donkey bashers post at the time and whilst I mentioned 300m, that’s the theoretical upper limit. More usual is 70 -180 In the limited experience I have had. Will look at Nathan Fosters material. I appreciate it’s a complex subject with many variables.

 

[Selous]

The trouble is there aren’t many detailed books on UK species so you need to extrapolate from other continents. Whilst not directly related to British species, The Perfect Shot II by Kevin Robertson is definitely worth a read too. What he says about impala and the smaller antelope holds true for UK deer like fallow. Nathan Foster has made his work accessible and in doing so has educated many people. As other have said he can be quite opinionated as he has the right to be.
There has been much good advice earlier in the thread. I would emphasise the thoughts to start thinking in terms of terminal velocity and bullet design being incredibly important aspects of terminal ballistics. The performance of a single bullet type can be radically changed as a consequence of the impact velocity being changed by a relatively small amount. The cartridges (Creedmoor vs 6.5x55 vs 6.5 PRC as an example) themselves only provide engine space to deliver the bullet at a particular speed and otherwise have little effect on terminal ballistic effect.

 

[Radstorm]

I am going to say something which sounds unhelpful but I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s true knowledge comes from experience.
So true knowledge of how a 6.5 / .308 how a deer reacts to the shot / how it’s going to effect the meat etc etc will only come from experience of doing it / seeing it etc

Use deer legal calibre and bullets designed for the job and go out and shoot deer within your capabilities.

If you want to understand hold overs wind etc - go to the range and shoot / go on courses.

 

[tarponhead]

Hi, as title - I am a newcomer to the subject, using a 6.5mm creedmoor and .308. I want to read up and better understand terminal ballistics and the pros and cons in relation to carcass damage, kill certainty and suitability for stalking on Roe and Fallow at ranges out to 300m. Where is a good place to start? I have done some googling and found lots of forum posts etc but a lot are between people who have a knowledge base I don’t yet have. I am after some starter reading or viewing and some pointers for stuff after that. Thanks…….

Have a look at Ron Spomer and Backfire, amongst many others, on You Tube.

 

[angusb1]

I would emphasise the thoughts to start thinking in terms of terminal velocity and bullet design being incredibly important aspects of terminal ballistics. The performance of a single bullet type can be radically changed as a consequence of the impact velocity being changed by a relatively small amount. The cartridges (Creedmoor vs 6.5x55 vs 6.5 PRC as an example) themselves only provide engine space to deliver the bullet at a particular speed and otherwise have little effect on terminal ballistic effect.

This is it in a nutshell. Bullet construction will lead to certain behaviours dependent on the velocity at which it impacts and the type and amount of flesh/bone etc it passes through, so you need to consider the type of bullet, it's velocity on impact, and the kind of animal it will hit. Nathan Foster also shares his experiences of the reactions to shot he has seen and focuses on whether there is a knockout shock to the central nervous system, this is useful too.

 

[Mike1979]

Suggest you get out there and shoot some deer as that will teach you more then you will ever read.

Limit yourself to ranges you are comfortable shooting at as we are all different. There are lots who disagree with head shooting and lots who donts...you make your choices and live with the consequences.

I shoot 6.5 Creed and .243 on the deer and whilst I only shoot limited numbers I learn more each time. Frankly, the only guarantee to drop an animal on the spot is a head or neck shot, or a shot that takes out the 2 front shoulders. I have shot fallow at 50 yards that have run 20 yards and yet virtually identical bullet placement at 300 yards and the deer took 2 steps...as has been mentioned deer dont read the same books.

 

[Heym SR20]

One very important to realise is that there have been many new developments in bullet design and construction in the last five to ten years, in particular with monolithic bullets. All bullets behave differently.

You need to bear this in mind, particularly when reading and watching older texts and videos.

For example, the early Barnes monolithics were designed as tough bullets for magnum velocity rifles shooting big tough African and North American game animals weighing a few hundred Kgs. They probably are not suitable lightly framed and delicate Roe Deer.

However hunting bullets are designed to kill animals. You need to check on the literature/ packaging / websites of the manufacturer which is the most suitable bullet for the type of hunting that you will be doing.

Shot Reaction - in the best practice guides there are details on how deer tend to react to different shot placement. It is important to know and understand this. Bullet “failure” is often blamed, when in fact it’s shot placement that is the issue.

Also deer are not very good at reading and haven’t been taught the correct reaction to being shot. So a deer shot through HILAR may indeed run, whilst a deer shot through heart drops on the spot, even though the perceived wisdom is very much the opposite.

 

[Scipio]

Nathan Foster’s website (Terminal Ballistics Research) is informative - though I’m not sure he’s been updating it much recently, and I don’t think there’s an entry for 6.5 Creedmoor.

He also produced a book that goes into a lot of detail on exactly what you’re asking about - and you used to be able to buy an electronic copy directly from his website.

He’s a slightly divisive figure, with some idiosyncratic views - but he has done a lot of testing and makes his interpretations accessible.

+1 for the Nathan Foster advice, Ron Spomer is also a generaly a quite sensible, fair viewed and experienced source on matters like Terminal ballistics and effect regarding types of projectiles, cartridges, shot placement on different species (in relation to their anatomy) the effect claimed by some of terminal velocity and so on.

For general understanding of how a bullet kills the animal, and how that might change depending on shot placement, or type, size or speed of bullet used, i thinks these pages by NF are as good as any info i have found yet: Effective Game Killing

As for his opinion on specific cartridges and their TE, i dont know if he has the creed there, but he quite surely has the 308.
He does however have entries for the 6.5x57 and 6.5x55, two cartridges shooting the same caliber bullets as the 6.5 CM , in fastish twist rate barrels (so similar weight projectiles can be used) with quite similar amount of power produced to propel those bullets, so i'd suggest reading his entries for those two, if he hasnt written specifically on the 6.5 cm yet.
Mind you, as i remember his entries for mid sized 6.5s, he's not a huge fan of their killing power at even medium long range, but that is just his opinion, of which he is of course more than entitled. When researching I think you'll find others good sources who think differently, so happy reading (and learning) and of course hunting! .

 

[tackb]

study deer anatomy , look at deer you are going to shoot remember it is 3d so check it's angle and how it is standing - now put a centerfire rifle bullet that is deer legal through the part of the deer you want to shoot , i recommend the top of the heart but the heart in general is a great start , this will kill your deer and you can study the effects when you gralloch it or back in the larder

no deer is bullet proof and there is no mammal alive that can survive a 6mm plus hole through the heart

 

[NullMac]

There are lots of opinions. I even found a site once that was put up by an American who was a designer of anti tank munitions cos his brother asked him about terminal ballistics on deer ! Fascinating stuff, and extensive, the boy had gone after it big time. Sadly gone now i think. Worth a quick search though !

He debunked a lot of theories including the energy on target stuff. The only thing that stuck in my head was that impact velocity is key. With the advent of monolithic bullets that is defo playing out.

Personally I have given up on terminal ballistics other than the correct bullet and impact velocity because so much of the end result is dependent on where the bullet actually impacts and the angle of impact. I don’t believe there is an X marks the spot other than brain or base of skull and thats not a viable shot a lot of the time.

Nathan has a lot of good stuff that challenges conventional thinking so well worth a read. Not sure it is as black and white as he would present it though.

Have fun it’s a bit like the calibre question, never ending debate and no real answer

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Terminal Velocity x "Frangibility Coeficient" x placement

You can afford to be low on one only to ensure effecient killing

Solids - Run fast and use bones to ensure expansion and CNS Placement to ensure drop to shot
Frangible - avoid bone for cleaner carcase, run moderate TV to avoid splash wounds (unless heavy)
Textbook Heart shot - use soft points or semi frangible to ensure max wound channel
Low Velocity - Use heavy for calibre and/or Soft point semi frangible to ensure max penetration and wound channel
High Velocity - run High Velocity or frangible to inflict max wound channel

Calibre largely irrelevant
Weight class relevant to expansion characteristics - 95gr VMax at low velocity is much less frangible than a 50gr VMax at 3500fps
Weight class of target relevant - light framed thin sknned game and lung shot presents minimal resistance and expansion potential, Heavy framed thick skinned game and shoulder shot presents a significant resistance
Velocity only relevant at target - MV/BC and Range to target determine that