DSC2 - Wild vs. Park Debate

[al4x1]

"Oh yes" said the Chur***l dog.
It"s just whichever way you look Jelen seem to be chasing business, it feels a bit like the bangle/trinket sellers in India when you alight from a bus or train, they also just will not back off, i find it a bit of an OTT way to make a living.
martin

They have certainly started the ball rolling everyone and their dog who is selling stalking at the moment seems to be dipping their toe into training in one way and another as a sideline.
As for this offer its only that it will appeal to some and not others thats the world we live in, Is it better to be trained in a certain way so you go out doing the job to best practice or simply collecting a load of bad habits along the way then trying to pass in having corrected them. Most things in life its easier to learn properly first time round,

 

[bogtrotter]

What Jelen are offering is totally legit. This does not mean that you will walk away with a DSC2. The assessment is candidate led. It is up to the candidate to prove competance. If they simply can not do the job they have no come back. They should not have entered into it in the first place. If a candidate is confident of his or her ability then this is an ideal way of makeing sure that they can gain it in a limited time scale. Nothing more. Jelen cant be held responsable for a candidates poor performance.

Regards

Mark

Sums the whole thing up IMO

 

[Sharpie]

I was not aware that DSC2 culls could be performed using park deer. Thank you Malcolm for clarifying.

I am surprised that this could satisfy performance criteria 1.5 or 1.6. Given that it can (I have just re-read page 4 of the Witness Handbook), I now see how the whole process could be "streamlined" into two days and cull opportunities guaranteed.

It doesn't quite seem to be in the spirit of the handbook, which states "The stalk or dispatch assessment will normally take place in an area where deer are wild, i.e. normally not contained within a perimeter fence or wall. The shooting of farmed deer cannot be accepted." But it seems park deer are allowed, in the right circumstances.

I don't think this accelerated method of completing the portfolio is for me, but I can see that it will be very attractive for others.

Its certainly an innovative approach.

 

[ytene]

As one of the Jelen AWs...it would be abundantly clear if competance/safety was wanting in a candidate in a very short time,although guidance would be offered it is not the purpose of the witnessed stalks..that is purely observation of the meeting of the DMQ Performance Criteria...the student is fully responsible for assessing if they are ready, like a driving test after instruction, the guarantee is that deer will be in front of you, the meeting of the Criteria is down to the student. You may tick all of the stalking boxes,then fall down on a basic safety issue..also you do not pass/fail to meet the DSC2,you meet or fail to meet all of the Performance Criteria, on meeting the Criteria the AW will then tick those boxes/and detail the questions asked and the answers given,the preparation of Evidence is the students responsibility as to it being Current/ Relevant..the AW CAN ONLY GIVE A WRITTEN REPORT ON WHAT HE/SHE HAS WITNESSED ON THE NARRATIVE.

 

[patrickt]

lots of interesting comments on this one, however in my view, jelen sets out clearily what they are providing, adding the caveat (paraphrasing) that the course is only suitable for expereince candidates, in simple terms they are saying "Buyer beware". I think jelen should be given the opportunity to respond to the negative comments posted, I for one think they have recognised a shortfall in that a person seeking to do DSC level 2, and who may be ready to do it, and simply putting an attractive package/financial option forward, long may this approach continue, we all might benefit form it, we certainly will not suffer from it!!. I should be further noted that both jelen and yorkshire roe stalking (John Robson) are regular contributors to this site and provide excellent videos of gralloching/field dressing/handling for us all (Including the inexperienced amongst us) for FREE...... what an ungrateful and cynical bunch are some of us!!!

 

[crouch valley]

I see no problem with this scheme at the end of the day there is no pass or fail for level two its down to the accesses to see if the candidate has reached all the requirements. These days you can go and do a Intensive Driving Courses. Learn To Drive In One Week Driving School at the age of 17 and then if you pass you have a driving licence for life. At the end of the day what dose level two mean you are a competent and hygienic stalker that's all dose it stop you from ever messing a shot up NO dose it mean you are better than the old boy who's been doing it all his life but dose not have level two NO. What Jelen are offering is to attempt to pass level two in a short time in one place on park deer dose this mean its any easier NO. I have stalked for over twenty years I'm level one and two dose this mean I'm as good as some one like John from Yorkshire stalking or any other professional stalker NO it just means I did it right on those three stalks. As for stalking park deer I've culled park deer and found them to be a very difficult stalk they are still a flight animal like wild deer and just as switched on and not a easy option. I think the negative comments are more based that Jelen are offering this and its time to stick the knife in. What a shame some people feel compelled to try and put down a reptuble company that puts a lot into SD.

 

[223]

this is a geniue question could a disabled person take their level 2 ????? if unable to walk and could only use a highseat ????????????

 

[Mr Lewis]

223

In answer to your question yes they can I know a girl who cannot walk very well who did her DSC1 & 2

Best speak to the assessment centre direct to discuss details as I think it is a case by case basis

 

[Mr Lewis]

I see no problem with this scheme at the end of the day there is no pass or fail for level two its down to the accesses to see if the candidate has reached all the requirements. These days you can go and do a Intensive Driving Courses. Learn To Drive In One Week Driving School at the age of 17 and then if you pass you have a driving licence for life. At the end of the day what dose level two mean you are a competent and hygienic stalker that's all dose it stop you from ever messing a shot up NO dose it mean you are better than the old boy who's been doing it all his life but dose not have level two NO. What Jelen are offering is to attempt to pass level two in a short time in one place on park deer dose this mean its any easier NO. I have stalked for over twenty years I'm level one and two dose this mean I'm as good as some one like John from Yorkshire stalking or any other professional stalker NO it just means I did it right on those three stalks. As for stalking park deer I've culled park deer and found them to be a very difficult stalk they are still a flight animal like wild deer and just as switched on and not a easy option. I think the negative comments are more based that Jelen are offering this and its time to stick the knife in. What a shame some people feel compelled to try and put down a reptuble company that puts a lot into SD.

There is no great skill in stalking park deer though they are always in that 10, 100 200 acre paddock and will be all day doesnt matter how many times you bump them they are always going to be there.

The jelen team have already said the deer will be put in front of the candidates now that doesnt sound like stalking to me.

 

[2130martin]

There is no great skill in stalking park deer though they are always in that 10, 100 200 acre paddock and will be all day doesnt matter how many times you bump them they are always going to be there.

The jelen team have already said the deer will be put in front of the candidates now that doesnt sound like stalking to me.

I shouldnt imagine the AW would sign the stalking part off if you keep bumping them and dont get close enough to take a shot.......som could say it will be harder than stalking a deer on your own patch...that reminds me its time to go out and hand feed my pet deer!!...............just a different angle to look at the arguement..........

 

[crouch valley]

There is no great skill in stalking park deer though they are always in that 10, 100 200 acre paddock and will be all day doesnt matter how many times you bump them they are always going to be there.

The jelen team have already said the deer will be put in front of the candidates now that doesnt sound like stalking to me.

Its easy to use word games. Paddock define a small field or enclosure where horses are kept or exercised. I dont think 100 or 200 acres comes under this definition.

 

[2130martin]

+1,my whole permissions are merely paddocks in that case!!!

 

[Mr Lewis]

Its easy to use word games. Paddock define a small field or enclosure where horses are kept or exercised. I dont think 100 or 200 acres comes under this definition.

So how big are the three Deer Parks Jelen are using?

 

[stone]

What Jelen are offering is totally legit. This does not mean that you will walk away with a DSC2. The assessment is candidate led. It is up to the candidate to prove competance. If they simply can not do the job they have no come back. They should not have entered into it in the first place. If a candidate is confident of his or her ability then this is an ideal way of makeing sure that they can gain it in a limited time scale. Nothing more. Jelen cant be held responsable for a candidates poor performance.

Regards

Mark

Nope as I read it and also the now amended saving grace highlighted extra

They guarantee you DSC2 in 2 days
If you are now competent
WTF is that about
If your ground is crawling in deer the chances are you will shoot a few on a good weather day
Then go on to say if you need a fourth stalk
This makes a mockery out of L2 as I would class it and now it makes a statement
We at Jelen will get you through L2 but it will cost you
Just another money making spin off just like the L1 courses
Sorry Jelen
Making money is one thing but trying to rip off the system And degrade the rest of us us who actually worked at getting our qualifications in the way it was intended for and believe in
That's another matter

 

[6pointer]

Good Post STONE Is it any wounder that the deer sector in Scotland decided categorically to make Lev one the standard and leave Lev 2 to die a death.

 

[Sharpie]

At the end of the day the award of DSC2, or not, will be decided by the Assessor and confirmed by the Internal Verifier. 'Nowt to do with Jelen, or any of their contracted AWs. Of course the AWs have a duty to truthfully report on whether or not the relevant Performance Criteria have been observed to be satisfied.

Rather surprised that "the guarantee is that deer will be in front of you" would meet the test.

Jelen have been running this "DSC L2i" course (for that is how it is described) since 2011, so the Assessors and Internal Verifiers presumably must be aware of and happy with the way they operate it.

Doubtless a number of people have already benefited from this most efficient process and gained their DSC2 thanks to a portfolio generated entirely during this 2 day course. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has succeeded. Perhaps Jelen could advise how many have already done so ?

 

[stalkinginengland]

It depends on what you are testing surely. The ability to stalk into the animal and the clean and safe gralloch can be achieved. Now I did not say I agree with it or not , but jelen are working within the rules. If the rules need changing then Jelen are not the people to speak to and question, that comes down to DMQ. If there is a problem and the DSC is industry led then DMQ need to be taken to task.

With the NVQ system it was simple, Basic knowledge level 1, assist with level 2,, and manage level 3. When it was part of the Gamekeeping level 2 and 3 you could not get it unless you were doing the job.


It was also a nationally recognised qualification not a certificate.

Mark

 

[trouble]

well , I did level 2 in one day on deer in a 500 acre park , stalk one larder it go back stalk another . They may be park deer but their not cattle .

 

[Sharpie]

Good Post STONE Is it any wounder that the deer sector in Scotland decided categorically to make Lev one the standard and leave Lev 2 to die a death.

Agree wholeheartedly, but I don't think SNH are ignoring the need for a proper certificate of competence in the future. The way I read the runes is that they will probably develop their own qualification, based on (Scottish) best practice. All the hooks are there in the long term requirements for entry to the fit and competent register. It is clear that they don't think much of DSC2. It was discredited years ago, and an attempt made to rejuvenate it by supposedly eliminating the "incredible" witnesses etc. I don't blame players seeking to extract as much gelt as possible before it is utterly discredited, but they do seem to be accelerating the process.

 

[ytene]

Stone ,I think the driving force for Level 2 comes from the candidates after all it is a voluntary scheme at the moment...if an employer insists on it that is different to a stalker that needs it to take a lease etc. no system is perfect..but the German system for example is very stringent as is the Swedish and others...the candidates can EITHER take their stalks in the normal stalking environment or choose to do a park session with Jelen/or other providers as long as the PCs are fulfilled it is not an issue...if anyone thinks a DSC2 park cull is easy I will personally pay for that person to do one, on the condition that a proper stalk is performed and the PCs are fulfilled including the gralloch..there are a lot of armchair experts in stalking...but the DMQ is a democratic process where candidates vote with their own time and money...the most that I have heard a candidate paying to achieve DMQ Level 2 is £1000,but that was some years ago . The DSC 1 remains the technical phase,the DSC2 the practical phase ,to take either remains a personal choice...however I know that Hampshire Police do not accept initial grants of FAC for deer on the basis of DSC1 only without having relevant experience/and or a mentor deemed acceptable to the Police...that is fact and is the thin end of the wedge,more and more landowners are insisting on evidence of competence and big insurance cover...the standard for deer training must come within the deer industry not led by forces outside of it, if providers of training can enhance the skill of each stalker by structured development,like a CPD...is that a negative step?