Issues Surrounding The Shooting Organisations as per various recent discussions

Moray well done for starting this thread with such a considered view, also to all of those taking part.

Good to see BASC here too at times their balancing act must seem to be impossible, more power to their elbow :) and I say that as an independant trade member.

It is the most considered and calm discussion I have read since joining SD, I will now have to go and lie down to recover :-Dbefore considering any response I can give that could add to the standard.

Best regards to all.

Jon.
 
The way some shooters behave is why the shooting community is in the trouble it is today.

you see all the anti sites and people all stick together they fight together and they march together, all shooters no matter if you are a Hunter a Stalker Target shooter or a Bunny basher all we ever do is argue and the anti's look at all us pratts and clap their hands.

If we dont sort ourselves out we deserve all we get, it is no secret that many MP's and others the police aswell would like nothing more than the only people with guns in this country being the military and the police, we are already seeing airguns in Scotland going on a ticket and that will happen here in England to (in the not to distant future) and the reason this will happen is because us the shooters and the shooting organisation will let it happen.

none of the shooting organisations in this country are doing their best for us it is obvious by the way that so little is being done for shooting through Government, the Government have said they will debate the hunting ban (when) never and that will be the same for any other issue we have, and the pistol issue that will go nowhere as well.


look at that pratt Brian may at the olympics he turns up with his animal coat and nothing is said and thats the problem every time the anti's have an issue they go mad they rant rave and shout all together and they shout at Government and before you can even scratch your balls they have been heard and the only way we will be heard is to start acting just like them only all together.


The shooting organisations should remember one thing we who pay for membership pay their wages and keep them where they are and its about bloody time they started shouting louder at Government and the anti's so they get the message that we aint going to lay down while they F--k us.

So lets start sticking together and getting a bigger voice and behave in a manner that depicts us and our shooting organisations as a force to be recond with who wont lay down and be f--ked over and start fighting for what we want, after all if you look back we have a right to bare arms amendment to, I tell you now if we dont get our act together we WILL loose every thing we have now, lets face it our shooting rights are being nibbled away as we speak.


but its not just anti's that are getting a better press than we are you only have to look at the amount of land that is being taken away from us as by the like of National trust, natural England and many others even the RSPB are haveing a poke with the prey birds poisonings and such.


I bet every anti shooting and anti this that and other were putting their hands together when they read some of the posts that got the thread locked, and we give them all the ammo they need we know they come on here and every other shooting forum there is.


we need to act and we need to act fast as do the shooting organisations because the way we are going we are just going to f--k it all up and the only people to blame will be ourselves.


paul
 
The way some shooters behave is why the shooting community is in the trouble it is today.

you see all the anti sites and people all stick together they fight together and they march together, all shooters no matter if you are a Hunter a Stalker Target shooter or a Bunny basher all we ever do is argue and the anti's look at all us pratts and clap their hands.

If we dont sort ourselves out we deserve all we get, it is no secret that many MP's and others the police aswell would like nothing more than the only people with guns in this country being the military and the police, we are already seeing airguns in Scotland going on a ticket and that will happen here in England to (in the not to distant future) and the reason this will happen is because us the shooters and the shooting organisation will let it happen.

none of the shooting organisations in this country are doing their best for us it is obvious by the way that so little is being done for shooting through Government, the Government have said they will debate the hunting ban (when) never and that will be the same for any other issue we have, and the pistol issue that will go nowhere as well.


look at that pratt Brian may at the olympics he turns up with his animal coat and nothing is said and thats the problem every time the anti's have an issue they go mad they rant rave and shout all together and they shout at Government and before you can even scratch your balls they have been heard and the only way we will be heard is to start acting just like them only all together.


The shooting organisations should remember one thing we who pay for membership pay their wages and keep them where they are and its about bloody time they started shouting louder at Government and the anti's so they get the message that we aint going to lay down while they F--k us.

So lets start sticking together and getting a bigger voice and behave in a manner that depicts us and our shooting organisations as a force to be recond with who wont lay down and be f--ked over and start fighting for what we want, after all if you look back we have a right to bare arms amendment to, I tell you now if we dont get our act together we WILL loose every thing we have now, lets face it our shooting rights are being nibbled away as we speak.


but its not just anti's that are getting a better press than we are you only have to look at the amount of land that is being taken away from us as by the like of National trust, natural England and many others even the RSPB are haveing a poke with the prey birds poisonings and such.


I bet every anti shooting and anti this that and other were putting their hands together when they read some of the posts that got the thread locked, and we give them all the ammo they need we know they come on here and every other shooting forum there is.


we need to act and we need to act fast as do the shooting organisations because the way we are going we are just going to f--k it all up and the only people to blame will be ourselves.


paul

+1 :thumb:
 
T3.1, thank you for what was clearly a passionate and considered post.

The principle of united we stand, divided we fall is, I think, about the only area of common agreement amongst shooters! Putting it into action - even just internally seems to have been the stumbling block.

Completely agree with your call for a united effort. Personally feel that all the shooting organisations are doing things and are making some progress - but in the vein of my school reports - 'could try harder'. Its for them to speak on that, but it seems they are handcuffed on day one - because there doesnt seem to be a consensus about just exactly what it is that shooters do agree on wanting. With no firm objective, any campaign is much harder.

In terms of the approach, I agree utterly that time is ever more against us. I would argue that a huge amount of ground has been lost over many years. But, for me, the answer lies in - 1. changing the playing-field, 2. speaking in the language of the decision makers, 3. taking individual and personal responsibility as well as collective. I believe direct/ 'militant' action at this point - whilst still valid on some issues - would do more harm than good and play to the anti's. In addition, I suspect most in the shooting community are simply just not pre-disposed to that approach.

1. The Playing Field

There have been decades of subtle messaging and societal change at work. As it stands today society as an entity is mostly prejudiced to most of the obvious precepts that apply to fieldsports. This isn't just the anti's, but Joe public who may not really think about it much. Everything and near anything we put forward has to overcome an inertia in that public perception. As with aggressive posts on here, persuasion to a point of view - or even a fact - is more effective when calmly delivered.

The likes of Mike Robinson, Hugh FW etc and the contribution they have made toward swaying opinion seem to be hugely underrated by the shooting community. The TV Chef culture ( please - lets leave the Gordon Ramsays out of the equation ) has done a great job of, if not gaining ground, then slowing the attrition. I believe that some organisations recognise that and have put a lot of work into developing it. I believe it true of BASC and would like to think several others.

We tend to focus on the strident efforts of the Gay Community or Muslim Community in terms of the effectiveness of their efforts to influence public perception. But is it not the constant subtle drip, drip of characters on TV shows, stories etc that is the main force for change?

Fieldsports largely are ignored or get negative portrayal in the same media - as T 3.1 points out, we as individuals - dont do much to help on the whole.

I think that fragmentation within and the current depth of negativity is a vicious cycle. Breaking it is never easy - but we need positive public images of our own - building on the existing public personalities and encouraging others to stand up and be seen.

Perfectly executed it wont change overnight - thats why time is critical. This needs to be happening before the next crisis.

2. I think BASC will admit that part of their client image problem is a perception of 'plumminess'. Shooters are from all walks of life. I take more plumbers out than Baronets.

But there's two elements to this. There's the client market and there's the rest of the world. In terms of the debate over what service is most important from our organisations, I would propose that 'translation' is toward the top of the list.

Its about communication - that is more effective if the audience has at least some empathy with the speaker. I want BASC ( or whoever ) talking to the decision makers, the media and the public in a manner which helps them be receptive. There's a role for a number of personalities and accents - and class - in that. Its a potential strength not a weakness as far as I can see.

To speak and be heard you need to be in the right place. We are getting representation on committees and review boards. Maybe we are not always heard, maybe the outcome is a compromise - thats politics.

Big shiny buildings - I'm trying hard not to keep raising BASC - because this is about everyone and every organisation. Its not a recruitment drive for BASC - I guess I'm seeking a change on many levels and I'll stand behind whoever can deliver it. But BASC scored a huge win with their media centre. I dont believe it is fully utilised yet - but the structure is there. They saw the need, they did it and I thank that decision.

It was a big cost and arguably pretentious - I can see that point of view. But the audience, the media editors - who decide what we hear, the politicians and the opposition - they see it too. Before a word is uttered its sending a message. Thats a huge win.

Thats not to given complete credit to big is better. In a debate one thing trumps every trick of wordplay, all the spin doctor set ups and flim flam - facts, passionately and honestly delivered. Nothing shines like genuine passion and nothing stains like manufactured passion - ask Tony Blair!

Ask any media professional - what works best. There's an equal role for the genuine 'bloke' who can speak as he finds and keeps to fact and personal experience.

Ask Barristers what they hate most in a witness and its the person who feels obliged to make the case. It always comes tumbling down. Making the case is the Barristers job. What they want is someone who speaks plain and honestly from the heart - it shows.

Where do facts come from? Thats a big question. Communication starts with having something to communicate. Valid, thorough research is a good point to start. We need unassailable fact to be the ammunition for communication. Whether it be lead shot, lead free bullets, deer population, tree regeneration, grouse, eco diversity. It swallows up money that cannot readily be justified to memberships. It wont always produce the facts we'd like - but that too can be a strength. Poor research and sloppy science is our worst enemy - because it destroys trust.

3. Responsibility

Each single one of us is an ambassador for fieldsports. Sorry about that, but its quite likely true. As a shooter you bear a social stereotype - what you do, how you act reflects on us all by association. Thats true of every aspect of life - we all move between stereotypes constantly.

Sometimes we act properly but the context or some misunderstanding means that the image portrayed is negative.

As T3.1 says, some posts on SD are at best a bit thoughtless and at worst deliberate ego driven car wrecks for us all. We can call on admin to do this and that - but ultimately it comes down to the individual. If you goof on a post - apologise and change it and learn. If someone repeatedly crosses the line - lets not shy away from those threads/ posts, but lets not argue. Simply post 'this is not acceptable'. May or may not work, open to abuse by the wreckers and I'm completely open to suggestions. But Sd doesnt carry half the weight it should with others simply because of half a dozen or so egotists. That affects us all.

Clean up SD and maybe other organisations will pay more attention? I'm certain T3.1 is correct - more harm than good is done on occasion and those against us lap it up.

So please just think - is the video of a spectacular head shot etc adding or detracting to our image. And be absolutely clear I plucked that as an example. It is not judging any video poster or their contribution. The intent is to illustrate and provoke individual thought.

Off SD - every act you do in the field - treat it as if you were being filmed by Channel 4 news. Would you do anything different?

Back to communication - we are by nature a fairly quiet bunch. I'm not suggesting we change that, but perhaps think of two things you personally can do to support fieldsports.

It could be ditching the 'kill them all and let god sort 'em out' T shirt you wear when rabbiting for a plain one. It could be a simply e mail to your MP just saying why fieldsports are important to you. It maybe complaining to a Newspaper that prints rubbish about fieldsports - correcting them with fact. If they do it again stop buying that paper and encourage your friends to do the same - and tell the paper. Also tell the paper that you will abstaining from making purchases from their main advertisers and are writing to those advertisers to tell them why. None of that takes more than 15 minutes.

Join someone - The Countryman at the start of the year had an article by Simon King - new chair of the Wildlife Trusts. With a membership of 800,000 - EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND! They put ideas forward and get listened to. If you cannot afford to join anyone, send £1 to the organisation of your choice and tell them why.

Instead of moaning on Sd, tell someone that matters ( sorry Admin :D ) - many of us are members of the RSPB, NT etc - if they do something you dont agree with tell them, write to their magazine.

None of the above is supposed to be a manifesto, nor to tell anyone what to do or think. Just a point of view - possibly right, possibly wrong. Only intent is to have people think about things and post back with their views.
 
Dude,
I have to agree with all that you have written on this, but my God! What an uphill struggle it’s going to be. When we have aged rockers on BBC breakfast parading their views on wildlife management under the mantle of expert… and Joe Public nods quietly and swallows it whole!
What if the BBC rolled out the Chuckle brothers to expound their opinion on the worsening situation in Syria!! Take my point?

But your right we have to try.

[FONT=&quot]JD[/FONT]
 
Moray well done for starting this thread with such a considered view, also to all of those taking part.

Good to see BASC here too at times their balancing act must seem to be impossible, more power to their elbow :) and I say that as an independant trade member.

It is the most considered and calm discussion I have read since joining SD, I will now have to go and lie down to recover :-Dbefore considering any response I can give that could add to the standard.

Best regards to all.

Jon.

Yes I agree with that....
 
"every cripple has his own way of walking" and i dont believe it's realistic to expect the various bodies that represent huntin'shootin' fishin' to meld into one all singing all dancing collective. But niether should they be isolationist or elitist . it is beholden on these various bodies that seek to represent the gameshooters ,rec and pro stalker memberships, to co -operate where there is common ground and present a unified front against potential bad legislation or anti attacks. There is little to be achieved by point scoring off each other in the press that isnt very short term.
We all know that these various bodies have done sterling work in some areas and have sometimes dropped the ball or seemed weak and ineffective in other areas. Especially when looking in from the outside.
I would like to see evidence of a lot more direct co-operation between these bodies on the areas that they can agree on.
And we all may have to take some responsibility of getting more actively involved in helping to protect our interests through whichever body is the best fit for your point of view.
 
I think you make some valid points, and I think that in general there are far more areas of cooperation and common interest among the organisations than perhaps is evident, but if I may, I will look at a few specific examples:

Promotion of game to the UK market- Started initially by BASC around 16 years ago after a meeting with representatives from the National Game Dealers Association and BASC at Marford Mill. It began as ‘the Campaign for Game’ and was supported by, among others, the BFSS, who developed it into the Game to Eat campaign, which initially concentrated on butchers and smaller retailers, BASC developed it into Games’On and more recently ‘Taste of Game’ campaigns which tended to target more the larger retailers and pubs. Overall , as a result the sales of processed and unprocessed game in the UK have increased significantly.

Lead shot - It’s no exaggeration to say that the use of lead in shot and bullets has been bubbling away for decades, indeed the finger was pointed at spent lead shot was back in the late 1800’s suggesting it was causing poisoning in birds. More recently we have seen the LAG set up in the UK and the AMEC / ECHA review of lead at a European level, together with other investigations into the use of lead and lead products. I am pleased to say that over the past couple of years the main organisations in the UK have started to come together to try and stand up to this threat, and have joined forces under FACE UK.

Firearms licensing – All organisations want to see a better and more uniform approach from the licensing teams across the UK. I don’t think any organisation would disagree that if the HO guidance and ACPO best practice were followed and nothing else, like it is in several areas, there would not be a problem! However, it’s evident that its being approaching in a different way by different organisations. Some literally only respond on a case by case basis, others do this too but also to a greater or lesser extent try to work with ACPO and the Home Office as well as the Chief Constables to try and improve delivery of service.

At the end of the day all organisations will have real and perceived strengths and weaknesses. There will be issues that all, or most, agree on and on occasion issues that organisations will take opposing views on, such is life, but the big picture is that they all play their part in representing you and your shooting.

It’s a shame that only about half of the people who go live quarry shooting are members of any live quarry shooting organisation…but that’s another thread all together!

David
 
I agree that we all should join some sort of shooting organisation, and not only for the insurance but to put weight behind any lobbying that is needed to be done, and there is a huge amount that does need doing. You only have to look at the Olympics to see how badly shooting is thought of in this country. Even with a Conservative Government we are the only sport not to have a "LEGACY" venue from all the money spent on the games.

Simon
 
Exactly, imagine what a difference could be made if all the orgnisations had DOUBLE the resources they do now!!

David
 
No doubt to much relief all round, this is a quick one!

Many thanks to the responses thus far.

I think it extremely any one organisation could work as a one size fits all. Diversity has its positives - but I would like to see serious focus on the areas of commonality for the benefit of all. It has been happening - as David points out. But I would politely propose much more could be done and achieved. Such a move would likely need to start with individual members pushing for that.

Firearms licensing - utopia would be a change in the structure; thats a big and uncertain ask. Consistency would be a major move forward. With the budgetary considerations that are squarely in mind with most forces, it just appears an opportunity time to approach this side of things.

Membership - its a bit of a generalisation, but bigger has the potential to be better. There are a lot of shooters and even more shooting 'supporters' who are not a member of any organisation. Organisations could consider trying to open things up with cheaper supporter categories, a trade type initiative - rounding up, free or discounted membership on certain purchases etc Appreciating money tight all round.

Back to the individual - what can we do? A bit nerdy perhaps - but what about that next birthday/ christmas present being membership of your chosen organisation for someone not a member of anything?
 
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