How good a shot are the stalkers in the UK?

[bewsher500]

that the girls invariably do better because they are willing to listen.

not a trait women outside of rifle shooting are known for though.....

 

[PointBlank]

Punching paper is always time well spent, but it has the limitation of being stationary and only 2 dimensional!
What many stalkers fail to appreciate is the fact that deer are in fact 3 dimensional!!! They don't always stand broadside on and still like the DSC 1 Roebuck target!! Oblique stances and elevation differences have a huge effect on shot placement so as to achieve lethal and humane hits to the vital organs.
It's worth studying the anatomy of deer so you know what you can get away with. It is worth getting a straight rod or bamboo and holding it against a gralloched carcass to simulate entry and exit points at different angles so as to still try and hit the heart. Try it, you may be surprised!
MS

As I demonstrated this morning

 

[kennyc]

I was shooting my HMR from a table on our patio at targets down in my yard (90 yds) the other day, my wife came out and I asked her if she wanted a go, she sat down and shot a 1.25" group, first time she had ever fired a gun. I haven't let her have a go again LOL!

If she can do it anyone can.

On the other hand I doubt many rifles are capable of shooting under an inch at 100yds, a three shot group is one thing, how many posts on here do you see with 10 shot groups inside an inch? Not many.

just to help balance things for you, heres 10 on the paper at 100m Howa sporting in .308 with 3 different loadings ! plenty of modern rifles will shoot very well nowadays.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

As I demonstrated this morning

Indeed! But you got slightly lucky and destroyed the liver with an exit on the rear righthand side. If you tried the same shot from the other side, you would have exited via the stomach! Further strengthens my point about knowing the anatomy and location of vital organs!
There's some good info and pictures here:
http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/161.pdf
MS

 

[Milligan]

One of the main reasons I got my 17 HMR was to effectively practice my rifle shooting generally at a fraction of the cost of shooting centrefire cartridges exclusively for practice. Of course practice does need doing with the deer rifle too. But it is good to shoot as much and often as possible as shooting is a discipline like any other that needs practice and refinement like any other. It is quite difficult to shoot a rifle for practice in this country unless you have access to enough land to do your own thing. Bisley is fine in the south, but is hardly spontaneous or easy to do. What I find most strange though is at a range like Bisley after zero is checked, hardly any shooters much less stalkers are out there with the sticks or sitting down shooting like they ought to practice. What would be great would be something like the shotgunning equivalent of sporting clays set in a woodland, but for rifles at safe 'deer' targets in natural settings where scores can be checked. Various target distances could be increased etc. A moving target or two could be introduced as well. Having a go on such a facility twice a year would give stalkers the measure of their shooting.

There are options if you ask around; I run 3 stalkers challenges a year at Bisley with my club. 5 shots prone, 5 shots sitting, 5 shots off sticks standing and 5 on a popup fox with 5 sec exposures. I also arrange a trip to WMS in Wales every year which has all manner of shots at all manner of distances, winds and angles.

Fine, it's not a substitute for the real thing but it's practice and in general the standard of shooting is high and steadily improving.

 

[long_range_rob]

Correct ,many go on about hunting tests including shooting tests in Europe, I don't know about all European country's , but Belgium is one I do know of, don't know how long ago compulsory testing was introduced, but do know older hunters were granted grandfather rights.

But stranger than that holding a FAC in Belgium is in no way tied to having passed a hunting test, so a Belgian who has not passed the hunting test can and quite a few do bring their rifles and hunt in the UK.

They are granted a European pass on the strength of owning a rifle so can travel through out Europe, they also need a visitors firearm permit to hunt in the UK but that is granted providing they are of good character, and can meet the other criteria necessary, permission to hunt and a UK sponsor

Just to add my two penny worth.....

1) An FC friend of mine had a couple of Belgian gents turn up to stalk Roe with their trusty 9.3's. They nearly wet themselves when he explained that they would have to do a shooting test (3 rounds into 4" at 100yds from any position). Neither gent could initially hit the 3ft square pallett that the target was attached to and finally passed on their last permitted attempt. They then had to source some more ammunition to actually stalk!

2) A rifle that is "zeroed" 2 inches hight at 100 yards is NOT zeroed! A zero means that your point of impact precisely coincides with your point of aim.

I'm off now to fix my soap box.

 

[bogtrotter]

2) A rifle that is "zeroed" 2 inches hight at 100 yards is NOT zeroed! A zero means that your point of impact precisely coincides with your point of aim.


And a rifle thats zeroed spot on at 100yards, means I have missed the f*** er at 300

 

[Dalua]

2) A rifle that is "zeroed" 2 inches hight at 100 yards is NOT zeroed! A zero means that your point of impact precisely coincides with your point of aim.

I'm rather confused by this. Is 'zeroed' not a reference to the state of adjustment of the sights?

If your sight calibration is set so that your notional 'zero elevation' (based on the adjustement of the sight) gives a POI 2" above POA at 100yds, then depending on calibre, the coincidence of POA and POI is likely to be about 200yds.

Same 'zero' setting on the sights, no?

As I see it, all we are saying when we say 'I have zeroed my rifle 2" high at 100yds' (a very sensible thing to do for shooting reds, IMO) is 'I have adjusted my sights such that at 100yds the POI is 2" above the POA'. That setting of the sights is then known as 'zero'.

 

[PointBlank]

Indeed! But you got slightly lucky and destroyed the liver with an exit on the rear righthand side. If you tried the same shot from the other side, you would have exited via the stomach! Further strengthens my point about knowing the anatomy and location of vital organs!
There's some good info and pictures here:
http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/161.pdf
MS

... and not rushing a shot on an alert deer! Seriously though when I have made an an error it has always been with a deer standing more quartering than i expect and not adjusting my point of aim enough, it's a fair lesson.

Don't have those problems with head shots and ballistic tips I expect!

 

[Jimbo 30 06]

I am neither a statistical lame brain, nor am I rude in my discourse, the fact that I am asking for some sort of empirical (look it up) evidence for is the assertion that "It is a fact of life that 8 out of 9 stalkers cannot place 3 consecutive shots on to a one inch bullseye at 100 yards" I am sure that there are a number of poor shooters about but 8 out of 10 is a very specific claim and I would be very interested to see the data behind it.

Stag1933, are you as incapable of having a civilised discourse when you meet someone for the first time face to face?

Neil R and Tamus i must defend Stag's posts i have shot for 56 years and taught numerous people to shoot lads and lassies and will restate as i have said. If you do not have the ability to shoot in an unstressed relaxed way on a range then there is no way you can do it in a field situation. As stated in previous posts by others when i did my Lev 1 shooting test i ONE holed each target. I was the only yes ONLY one that went through with the nine rounds. The other five all had the twentyseven rounds the maximum allowed and FAILED. The course tutor i will not name then got the estate rifle as all the excuses in the book were used up and told the five that they now had the estate rifle that was 100% zeroed and they had nine rounds each to pass the test. The five all of them still could not do it in nine rounds each and the tutor told them they had almost used the ammo up. The tutor eventually got them through. Their shooting was abismal and if i was a Deer would NOT WANT to be SHOT BY THEM. To many on here think that if they can get there POI in a 4" circle then thats ok i RECOMMEND that they hone their skills lamping Rabbits and head shooting them you will then understand where I and Stagg are comming from for over thirty years i avaraged 1000 Rabbits a month and taught inexperienced guns the art of lamping and always found that if they could not cloverleaf a 1" Bull on the range then they had no chance in the field. I also state that Stagg is one of the nicest gentlemen that post on here. Also remember no matter how long you have been shooting and no matter how well experienced you are you never know it all. This i can say as only recently i was struggling with an issue and i asked Brithunter for advice as Brit is very knowledgeable and to solve my problem he refered me to Stagg who gave me the right answer straight away. From the posts on this thread it seems to me to many are trying to defend their BAD MARKSMANSHIP.

Jimbo

 

[Jimbo 30 06]

I was shooting my HMR from a table on our patio at targets down in my yard (90 yds) the other day, my wife came out and I asked her if she wanted a go, she sat down and shot a 1.25" group, first time she had ever fired a gun. I haven't let her have a go again LOL!

If she can do it anyone can.

On the other hand I doubt many rifles are capable of shooting under an inch at 100yds, a three shot group is one thing, how many posts on here do you see with 10 shot groups inside an inch? Not many.

Like Kenny C would you like me to post a card shot by me 10 rounds in the Bull yesterday at Leek Shooting Centre and witnessed. Zeroing my friends rifle for him.

Jimbo

 

[Tamus]

Neil R and Tamus i must defend Stag's posts i have shot for 56 years and taught numerous people to shoot lads and lassies and will restate as i have said. If you do not have the ability to shoot in an unstressed relaxed way on a range then there is no way you can do it in a field situation. As stated in previous posts by others when i did my Lev 1 shooting test i ONE holed each target. I was the only yes ONLY one that went through with the nine rounds. The other five all had the twentyseven rounds the maximum allowed and FAILED. The course tutor i will not name then got the estate rifle as all the excuses in the book were used up and told the five that they now had the estate rifle that was 100% zeroed and they had nine rounds each to pass the test. The five all of them still could not do it in nine rounds each and the tutor told them they had almost used the ammo up. The tutor eventually got them through. Their shooting was abismal and if i was a Deer would NOT WANT to be SHOT BY THEM. To many on here think that if they can get there POI in a 4" circle then thats ok i RECOMMEND that they hone their skills lamping Rabbits and head shooting them you will then understand where I and Stagg are comming from for over thirty years i avaraged 1000 Rabbits a month and taught inexperienced guns the art of lamping and always found that if they could not cloverleaf a 1" Bull on the range then they had no chance in the field. I also state that Stagg is one of the nicest gentlemen that post on here. Also remember no matter how long you have been shooting and no matter how well experienced you are you never know it all. This i can say as only recently i was struggling with an issue and i asked Brithunter for advice as Brit is very knowledgeable and to solve my problem he refered me to Stagg who gave me the right answer straight away. From the posts on this thread it seems to me to many are trying to defend their BAD MARKSMANSHIP.

Jimbo

I won't and don't defend "BAD MARKSMANSIP"

Please answer the opening question I posed in my post #57 on this thread.

Incidentally, there's another braggard on here very pleased with his undoubted talents.. he's hoping to start killing rabbits at distances in excess of 1000yards as he's clearly not happy just shooting them at 900+

See his full post here: http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php/49748-brand-new-uk-custom-actions

Or read the germane quote from that OP below:

Some of you may have been keeping up to date with my experiences shooting on the moors at ultra long range rabbits with 6.5x47 using 123gr Scenars (at 3130 (sub 10fps spread) using RL17), 140gr Amax (at 2920 using RL17) and later 120gr Nosler BTs (at 3040fps using RL17 again) which culminated in some fun posts on ukv, videos on both my YouTube channel (SharpshootingUK) and Si’s (bigsigh66). Kills included a 962y, dozens over 700y and probably hundreds over 600y, often in 15mph+ winds.

As slippery, accurate and fun as 6.5x47 is, I fancied a 284 slinging the 0.31 G7 BC 162gr Amax over 3000fps, possibly over 3100. I thought it best not squeezed into a short action, unnecessarily compromising powder room and efficiency. I wanted a custom action that was silky and strong and a pleasure to use.
I thought I’d spec the reamer for the barrel specifically for my bullet, giving me the best chance of suitability. I’d stick a top barrel on and my trusty IOR 9-36 and see if we could smash through the 1000y barrier
The step up in ballistics should be very decent if all went well: I’d be going from about .50 BC at 3000ish to .61 BC at perhaps 3100. By choosing a long action 284 with RL17, I’d be getting top class ballistics but with perhaps 3x the barrel life of some of the hot 7mm calibres.

Is this good practice on live game?

Shooting within one's abilities certainly is. So, I suppose, by implication yourself and HWH must approve of our talented sniper friend above.

 

[patjack]

I also state that Stagg is one of the nicest gentlemen that post on here.

Jimbo

I presume from your statement that you have personally met and know everyone that post's on here then.

 

[Jimbo 30 06]

I won't and don't defend "BAD MARKSMANSIP"

Please answer the opening question I posed in my post #57 on this thread.

Incidentally, there's another braggard on here very pleased with his undoubted talents.. he's hoping to start killing rabbits at distances in excess of 1000yards as he's clearly not happy just shooting them at 900+

See his full post here: http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php/49748-brand-new-uk-custom-actions

Or read the germane quote from that OP below:



Is this good practice on live game?

Shooting within one's abilities certainly is. So, I suppose, by implication yourself and HWH must approve of our talented sniper friend above.

Tamus i suggest you read my post it says i averaged a 1000 Rabbits a month NOT THAT I SHOT THEM at 1000yds. Also a Rabbits head is not much bigger that a Bullsey on a target therefore if your marksmanship is as you can not cloverleaf the bull you have no chance of head shooting Rabbits. Most Rabbits if everyone is honest that are shot under the lamp are shot at distances 50 - 70yds.

Jimbo

 

[NorthDorset]

Tamus that much quoting should come with a health warning.

Why doesn't everybody getting worked up just whip it out and measure it!

Guys this threads going round and round in circles.

 

[Jimbo 30 06]

I presume from your statement that you have personally met and know everyone that post's on here then.

patjack are you one of our ethnic cousins that do not understand English !!!!!!!!

Jimbo

 

[patjack]

patjack are you one of our ethnic cousins that do not understand English !!!!!!!!

Jimbo

Jimbo from living in the "UK" and no where specific I presume you are one of the travelling community.
If being welsh makes me what you have quoted then yes.

 

[Jimbo 30 06]

Jimbo from living in the "UK" and no where specific I presume you are one of the travelling community.
If being welsh makes me what you have quoted then yes.

Yaki da explains it all my one of my great gran's was Welsh she did no speak English either. My other great grand parents were Irish so maybe was from the travelling community one never knows.

Jimbo

 

[Tamus]

Tamus i suggest you read my post it says i averaged a 1000 Rabbits a month NOT THAT I SHOT THEM at 1000yds. Also a Rabbits head is not much bigger that a Bullsey on a target therefore if your marksmanship is as you can not cloverleaf the bull you have no chance of head shooting Rabbits. Most Rabbits if everyone is honest that are shot under the lamp are shot at distances 50 - 70yds.

Jimbo

Good for you, but I never said anything about the range YOU shot rabbits at.

I approve of good shooting. However, "good shooting" is not solely a question of good marksmanship. For instance, I strongly dissaprove of shooting live quarry at any range further than actually necessary, or beyond one's abilities ... regardless of how accomplished a target shooter anyone is.

So, is a deer's heart at 150m shot with a suitable stalking rifle a bigger or smaller target than a rabbit head at 70 yards shot with a rimfire?

And... I won't even ask if any of your rabbits ever ran off minus a bottom jaw or with their ear(s) pierced. That would be un-gentlemanly.

 

[Hornet 6]

Incidentally, there's another braggard on here very pleased with his undoubted talents.. he's hoping to start killing rabbits at distances in excess of 1000yards as he's clearly not happy just shooting them at 900+

Perhaps you have missed something, the poster of the link you provided is not the author, and the whole thing is actually a review of a rifle the original author had commissioned, as such I can only view it as helpful, well helpful if you can afford to be in the market for an accurate custom rifle.


Neil.