level two with the BDS for £492 for two days.

[6pointer]

Brian I agree with your post and have always said that the DMQ system needed sorting three deer was in my opinion to many and any AW worth his salt could decide if a candidate had reached the required standard on one deer at a push if the candidate was lucky on his first then two might have been a good number. But the BDS system takes all the skills need to stalk deer away.
All in support of shooting deer on a deer farm or deer park please tell me you think this is wild deer stalking/management and I will change my hobby.

http://walks.walkingworld.com/walk/Wadhurst---Woods---Deer-Park---Wadhurst.aspx

 

[JC275]

Davie, firstly, you are the only person talking about deer farms in connection with DSC2, I know that you think that it is harmless word play (I believe in internet terms its called trolling) but it is potentially confusing for novices or people with insufficient experience to know the difference between a park and a farm. Anyone who claims park deer culling is easy has clearly never done it and only makes a fool of themselves by highlighting the fact. I have taken a great many people out to shoot there first deer and I can say without any doubt that it is easier to shoot a woodland muntjac or farmland roe than a park deer in 99% of circumstances. Yes, park deer culling sometimes requires a slightly different set of skills to wild deer stalking but the same can be said for hill work as apposed to lowland stalking and, as has been said before, the shot itself is only 25% of an ICR.

Secondly, if you, or anyone else for that matter, has issues with DMQ then become an AW, Assessor, Internal Verifier or member of the standards committee and do something constructive to change it for the better.

Thirdly, you claim that shooting park deer devalues DSC2 because, in your opinion, it is too easy yet now you are saying that only one ICR should be required. I am confused, do you want DSC2 to be harder or easier to achieve?

All this constant sniping and perpetuating of misinformation does no favours to anyone and is one of the main reasons why this website is ridiculed (unfairly in my opinion) by most professional people and organisations within the UK deer field.

 

[devon deer stalker]

I was surprised to learn this when the most recent deer bytes was sent to me via email.
Although within the rules of DMQ i think it is an abuse of the system, which really disappoints me that BDS have gone down this road.
The home page of DMQ states 'Setting the standard for WILD deer management'
As stated above 1 witnessed stalk is sufficient provided it has been culled in a wild and not park environment.
DMQ need to sort themselves out and stop the abuse of the current system.
Cheers
Richard

 

[sussex stalker]

Well said 100% Correct...

Davie, firstly, you are the only person talking about deer farms in connection with DSC2, I know that you think that it is harmless word play (I believe in internet terms its called trolling) but it is potentially confusing for novices or people with insufficient experience to know the difference between a park and a farm. Anyone who claims park deer culling is easy has clearly never done it and only makes a fool of themselves by highlighting the fact. I have taken a great many people out to shoot there first deer and I can say without any doubt that it is easier to shoot a woodland muntjac or farmland roe than a park deer in 99% of circumstances. Yes, park deer culling sometimes requires a slightly different set of skills to wild deer stalking but the same can be said for hill work as apposed to lowland stalking and, as has been said before, the shot itself is only 25% of an ICR.

Secondly, if you, or anyone else for that matter, has issues with DMQ then become an AW, Assessor, Internal Verifier or member of the standards committee and do something constructive to change it for the better.

Thirdly, you claim that shooting park deer devalues DSC2 because, in your opinion, it is too easy yet now you are saying that only one ICR should be required. I am confused, do you want DSC2 to be harder or easier to achieve?

All this constant sniping and perpetuating of misinformation does no favours to anyone and is one of the main reasons why this website is ridiculed (unfairly in my opinion) by most professional people and organisations within the UK deer field.

 

[Jelendeer]

Davie, firstly, you are the only person talking about deer farms in connection with DSC2, I know that you think that it is harmless word play (I believe in internet terms its called trolling) but it is potentially confusing for novices or people with insufficient experience to know the difference between a park and a farm. Anyone who claims park deer culling is easy has clearly never done it and only makes a fool of themselves by highlighting the fact. I have taken a great many people out to shoot there first deer and I can say without any doubt that it is easier to shoot a woodland muntjac or farmland roe than a park deer in 99% of circumstances. Yes, park deer culling sometimes requires a slightly different set of skills to wild deer stalking but the same can be said for hill work as apposed to lowland stalking and, as has been said before, the shot itself is only 25% of an ICR.

Secondly, if you, or anyone else for that matter, has issues with DMQ then become an AW, Assessor, Internal Verifier or member of the standards committee and do something constructive to change it for the better.

Thirdly, you claim that shooting park deer devalues DSC2 because, in your opinion, it is too easy yet now you are saying that only one ICR should be required. I am confused, do you want DSC2 to be harder or easier to achieve?

All this constant sniping and perpetuating of misinformation does no favours to anyone and is one of the main reasons why this website is ridiculed (unfairly in my opinion) by most professional people and organisations within the UK deer field.

Excellent post there JC. Couldn't agree more.

Regards,

Mike

Mike Allison
Managing Director - Jelen Deer Services
01264 811155 / Mobile 07707 118612

 

[goldeneve frise]

I personally don't think it would devalue a dcs2 for me. I have my own stalking and in the last week alone I have, been out stalked deer on three separate occasions and had three separate deer in my sights , and only pulled the trigger once. The other two occasions I didn't shoot because on one of the deer that I had selected, I was just waiting for it to give me a shot, and three more appeared behind me only 30yards away and spooked the other deer. The second time I was waiting for the shot and i heard a horse and rider so didn't take the shot, so as not to potentially injure the horse or rider ( they were behind me and and some 500yards away). But I am not allowed to take anyone on the land and that includes aw's. It would be quite easy to get my icrs on my ground because I know my ground very well and I have put the time and effort into finding the best spots, and I know the deer on my bit do a big circuit going one way in the morning ,then coming back in the evening. So would the course be devalued for me

 

[Jagdmatch]

Davie, firstly, you are the only person talking about deer farms in connection with DSC2, I know that you think that it is harmless word play (I believe in internet terms its called trolling) but it is potentially confusing for novices or people with insufficient experience to know the difference between a park and a farm. Anyone who claims park deer culling is easy has clearly never done it and only makes a fool of themselves by highlighting the fact. I have taken a great many people out to shoot there first deer and I can say without any doubt that it is easier to shoot a woodland muntjac or farmland roe than a park deer in 99% of circumstances. Yes, park deer culling sometimes requires a slightly different set of skills to wild deer stalking but the same can be said for hill work as apposed to lowland stalking and, as has been said before, the shot itself is only 25% of an ICR.

Secondly, if you, or anyone else for that matter, has issues with DMQ then become an AW, Assessor, Internal Verifier or member of the standards committee and do something constructive to change it for the better.

Thirdly, you claim that shooting park deer devalues DSC2 because, in your opinion, it is too easy yet now you are saying that only one ICR should be required. I am confused, do you want DSC2 to be harder or easier to achieve?

All this constant sniping and perpetuating of misinformation does no favours to anyone and is one of the main reasons why this website is ridiculed (unfairly in my opinion) by most professional people and organisations within the UK deer field.

Individual arguments put aside, this option does appeal to me. I have been shooting deer for about 25 years with my own ground. I have in the past done a fair amount of woodland stalking, but now in the South East It is becoming increasingly unsafe to stalk on foot because of the belief by many people that they have a right to wander anywhere they like at all hours. As a result I increasingly rely on high seats. I doubt that I could do all of the required stalks on my ground. This is the main reason that I have not bothered with DSC2 til now.
I can appreciate all of the other issues but if this encourages people to get further competency training then it has got to be worthwhile.

 

[6pointer]

JC dose it matter if its a farm or a park they are still not wild. Regards making it easier not true. I want it easier to obtain. To stalk a truly wild deer safly and enter it in the food chain is quite difficult. Repeating it a further twice is just time consuming and expensive not harder. BDS has stooped to a new low for cash in my opinion for this one.
Don't tell me park deer or farmed deer are hard to deal with because they are not in fact they stand and look at you waiting for the tasty bred roll.
I am an AW JC275.
Hey Mike that wouldn't be because you shoot park deer now would it

 

[N.F.W.M]

JC dose it matter if its a farm or a park they are still not wild. Regards making it easier not true. I want it easier to obtain. To stalk a truly wild deer safly and enter it in the food chain is quite difficult. Repeating it a further twice is just time consuming and expensive not harder. BDS has stooped to a new low for cash in my opinion for this one.
Don't tell me park deer or farmed deer are hard to deal with because they are not in fact they stand and look at you waiting for the tasty bred roll.
I am an AW JC275.
Hey Mike that wouldn't be because you shoot park deer now would it

Clearly you have no or limited experience of culling park deer. There are more than one very experienced members of this site who have been park culling with me and never managed to get a shot off.

Regards

Ed

 

[cookingfat]

JC dose it matter if its a farm or a park they are still not wild. Regards making it easier not true. I want it easier to obtain. To stalk a truly wild deer safly and enter it in the food chain is quite difficult. Repeating it a further twice is just time consuming and expensive not harder. BDS has stooped to a new low for cash in my opinion for this one.
Don't tell me park deer or farmed deer are hard to deal with because they are not in fact they stand and look at you waiting for the tasty bred roll.
I am an AW JC275.
Hey Mike that wouldn't be because you shoot park deer now would it

Davie, you and I don't see eye to eye on many maters, but on this one I agree with you.
I have been involved in many park/farm culls and yes,it is not easy but it is very different to stalking wild deer.
As most peoples stalking is wild deer, if they are doing DSC 2 then they should do stalking on wild deer.

Regards Tony

 

[Jelendeer]

JC dose it matter if its a farm or a park they are still not wild. Regards making it easier not true. I want it easier to obtain. To stalk a truly wild deer safly and enter it in the food chain is quite difficult. Repeating it a further twice is just time consuming and expensive not harder. BDS has stooped to a new low for cash in my opinion for this one.
Don't tell me park deer or farmed deer are hard to deal with because they are not in fact they stand and look at you waiting for the tasty bred roll.
I am an AW JC275.
Hey Mike that wouldn't be because you shoot park deer now would it

It might have something to do with it Davie!!

However, if the park is 2000 or 3000 acres, then the deer inside are simply wild deer with a fence around them. Correct? So in this case would it be more acceptable to complete DSC2 in a park of 3000 acres than it is to shoot 3 deer on an estate of only 500 acres?? … or not?

The difference is ONLY the fact that on the fenced area you KNOW the deer are there, and therefore the chances of getting your beast/s are increased, perhaps almost guaranteed! What is wrong with that?

Mind you, interesting to see others who at one time criticised Jelen's DSC2 Initiative, now supporting the new 'opportunity' offered by BDS … Is it a case of where Jelen lead, others follow????

Regards,

Mike.

 

[cookingfat]

It might have something to do with it Davie!!

However, if the park is 2000 or 3000 acres, then the deer inside are simply wild deer with a fence around them. Correct? So in this case would it be more acceptable to complete DSC2 in a park of 3000 acres than it is to shoot 3 deer on an estate of only 500 acres?? … or not?

The difference is ONLY the fact that on the fenced area you KNOW the deer are there, and therefore the chances of getting your beast/s are increased, perhaps almost guaranteed! What is wrong with that?

Mind you, interesting to see others who at one time criticised Jelen's DSC2 Initiative, now supporting the new 'opportunity' offered by BDS … Is it a case of where Jelen lead, others follow????

Regards,

Mike.

sorry Mike, it just seems like BDS are jumping on the money bandwagon with you, please don't take this the wrong way as I guess it gets people through an exam which if you don't have you own stalking could cost a lot of time and money, I guess in today's fast track everything it is now acceptable.
As I said don't take this the wrong way I guess I just need to move forward and catch up,
it just seems wrong to me, park deer no matter now big the fence just react differently to wild deer.
please don't tell me they don't.......

Tony

 

[JC275]

I give in! You've worn me down!

One thing is for certain, whether they are in the wild, farm, park or Scottish council estate, it has got to be easier to shoot three deer than discuss DSC2 on the internet!!

 

[Jelendeer]

sorry Mike, it just seems like BDS are jumping on the money bandwagon with you, please don't take this the wrong way as I guess it gets people through an exam which if you don't have you own stalking could cost a lot of time and money, I guess in today's fast track everything it is now acceptable.
As I said don't take this the wrong way I guess I just need to move forward and catch up,
it just seems wrong to me, park deer no matter now big the fence just react differently to wild deer.
please don't tell me they don't.......

Tony

Hi Tony,

I appreciate your view, and agree with you on some of it. Some park deer DO behave differently due to the human interaction with them. But with respect, I know a lot of park herds which behave EXACTLY like wild ones, and equally I know of some wild Fallow herds that wait to be fed each day from a tractor and trailer! What's your view on those? Are the 'wild' ones that hang around waiting to be fed each day 'fair game' for DSC2? and the 'wild ones' in the 3000 acre park not? Not trying to get a rise, just trying to understand where the difference is.

If its purely the fence that is the difference, then isn't most land enclosed with some kind of fence? On that matter, how do you see wild deer that have jumped into a fenced forestry plantation. Are they not wild ones with a fence around them, or have they become park deer? … Just interested Tony.

Regards,

Mike.

Mike Allison
Managing Director - Jelen Deer Services
01264 811155

 

[devon deer stalker]

The difference between stalking wild deer in a wild environment, compared to 'wild' deer in a deer park is without stating the obvious, a fence!
You balls up on a stalk with a wild deer on a farm (even if its 3000 acres) you have lost that deer and learnt from the experience, you lose that deer it can/will cross the border onto another permission, mess up on a deer park and you know the deer is still there somewhere, so you get a second, third etc chance.
Where is the challenge in that?
Cheers
Richard

 

[cookingfat]

Hi Tony,

I appreciate your view, and agree with you on some of it. Some park deer DO behave differently due to the human interaction with them. But with respect, I know a lot of park herds which behave EXACTLY like wild ones, and equally I know of some wild Fallow herds that wait to be fed each day from a tractor and trailer! What's your view on those? Are the 'wild' ones that hang around waiting to be fed each day 'fair game' for DSC2? and the 'wild ones' in the 3000 acre park not? Not trying to get a rise, just trying to understand where the difference is.

If its purely the fence that is the difference, then isn't most land enclosed with some kind of fence? On that matter, how do you see wild deer that have jumped into a fenced forestry plantation. Are they not wild ones with a fence around them, or have they become park deer? … Just interested Tony.

Regards,

Mike.

Mike Allison
Managing Director - Jelen Deer Services
01264 811155

i guess mike,we will agree to disagree, as I said everything els is the same just the fact that one maybe wild and one not so wild.


Thanks

Tont

 

[robert1666]

i really dont know why certain people on this are criticizing the bds for offering this? It should be the whole level 1 /2 process that should be geting critisized.
for your level two anyone with sense would make sure you took your witness to a piece of ground which you knew there would be deer there by makeing sure the place was well scouted>You then do your stalk on ground which you will probably know like the back of your hand and answered all the questions correctly knock over the deer-gralloched it more questions extracted it job done,
Now how is this different from going to a deer farm which will have plenty of cover i.e woodland for the deer to thrive , now the candidate isn't going to know the ground is he? therefore the candidate is going to have to think on there feet and think of where the deer will be , i think certain individuals are assuming the deer are out in open green fields grazing like sheep how wrong this perception is, also they dont stand about looking at you like a cow they are quite easily spooked and tend to know when something is going on therefore you can stalk these just like any other deer for the purpose of level 2 only difference is you know theres going to be deer there whats wrong with that ?
Also this really ****ed in my corn flakes reading this quote " they get there level 2 and get a fc lease " what planet are you on lad even saying this anyone whos ever tendered for one will know all the paperwork then the interview process which is pretty grilling as well so just cause you have a level 2 doesnt automatically give you a commision lease.
My overall opinion where these qualifications are concerned is that they are a load of ******** and need to more thought out i.e more experience from certain individuals, you have lads like myself who have been stalking for over 12 years never needed any kind of qualification experience is what counted! now you get guys who have only ever shot a handfull of deer and throw about there level 2 qualifications as if it makes them experts you soon get to know who these so called experts are from the ******** that they talk! me i did my level two due to all the forrestry companys now asking or rather demanding you have this level 2 qualification before you get a look in notice how i said "get a look in " and not automatically given .

 

[Jelendeer]

The difference between stalking wild deer in a wild environment, compared to 'wild' deer in a deer park is without stating the obvious, a fence!
You balls up on a stalk with a wild deer on a farm (even if its 3000 acres) you have lost that deer and learnt from the experience, you lose that deer it can/will cross the border onto another permission, mess up on a deer park and you know the deer is still there somewhere, so you get a second, third etc chance.
Where is the challenge in that?
Cheers
Richard

I disagree with you on that Richard. As most of those who regularly stalk deer on parks, especially the large parks, will testify that invariably its harder to 'stalk' park deer than it is the wild ones.

In response to your post, how do you stand on the scenario where somebody balls up a shot and wounds a wild one - in the wild - then yes the animal will likely cross the boundary and then spend a while dying. At least on a park area, then its only a matter of time and the animal 'will' be found.

Whats your feeling on that? … Just interested.

My opinion is someone paying good money to lose the opportunity of a shot is not the challenge, neither is losing a wounded beast a challenge. The challenge (as far as I am concerned) is the candidate proving that he/she knows how to stalk, how to shoot, how to find the lymph nodes and how to end up with a carcass fit for human consumption, all done in a safe, humane and hygienic manner.

Regards,

Mike.

Mike Allison
Managing Director - Jelen Deer Services
01264 811155

 

[JabaliHunter]

The stalking part in the DSC2 is not about showing that you are a trained ninja capable of approaching wild deer without being detected, it is about being able to demonstrate that you can move around with your kit and rifle without being a danger firstly to yourself and more importantly to others and then shooting a correctly identified beast.

Perhaps next people will be worried about whether a DSC2 is comparable if someone stalks and shoots three sika in a plantation; versus someone who shoots three roe that just happened to stand there looking stupid for just long enough; versus three muntjac that just happened to walk out onto a ride at the wrong time and surprising the stalker?

 

[6pointer]

I do feel that this year will be a mile stone for people wanting to stalk deer in Scotland. SNH will deliver there verdict on the voluntary approach to wild deer management and if it is fit for purpose as it is, to the Scottish minister. So now the question have we reached an all time low and are we that desperate for cash and clients that we need to sell fenced in deer.?
Is this an admittance by the designers (BASC BDS ) that Lev two was a step to far. To expensive and two time consuming for you average deer stalker.?
Were will it end can we purchase 3 deer and place them in a field and shoot them infront of an AW.?
What criterion has DMQ put on deer parks/farms if any .?
Is this a form of Canned hunting members of this site seem very quick to decry.?

Wild deer a national approach now seems a bit suspect when BDS sits on most of the panels.