level two with the BDS for £492 for two days.

[pheasant sniper 1]

It appears that most of the criticism of the BDS DSC2 Park Option comes from those who already have DSC2!! … I wonder if the same people would have criticised it if they were about to do their DSC2 culls.

Three issues come to mind here:

1) The difference is only that the candidate is not 'wasting' stacks of time wandering around an area, being charged for it by an AW, and where it is possible that animals are simply not there. If you fail to even find a beast, then you pay to go again!!! … On a park of 2000 or 3000 acres the deer ARE going to behave much as they do in the wild. … Oh, and also the fact that a wounded animal WILL be recovered in a controlled environment!!!

2) Everybody has the choice in how they want to achieve their DSC2. If you prefer the 'harder' route and are happy to pay AW's more money to go out time and time again, then that option is there for you. If you prefer the 'Cost-Effective' option, then its waiting for you.

3) Regarding the ICR's, it makes no difference whatsoever wether you choose the 'Harder' option, or the 'Cost-effective' option, the performance criteria are still the same and the candidate MUST demonstrate the same knowledge and skills to be signed off.

Nobody's twisting anyone's arm to do DSC2 by either route. You simply need to choose which one suits you.

Finally, in recent years there has been much criticism of the BDS for being stuck in the rut and unwilling to change - and I was one of the criticisers!! - but here we see the BDS actually moving forward, and I for one think its a positive move on their part, but it is disappointing to see people still bitching about a new initiative. YOU have the choice, and I don't think the BDS are about to 'short-circuit' the proper procedures and performance criteria. Why would they???

They, (like Jelen) are simply offering an alternative, and to a point taking the uncertainty and the 'cash-cow' factor out of the equation.

Regards,

Mike.

Mike Allison
Managing Director - Jelen Deer Services
01264 811155

Thats fair enough Mike.

For me i will always be thankfull i did my three for my level two with three diferent AW's on three diferent species and in diferent terrain.

Im thankfull because after my assesements in talking with them and in taking further deer i continued to learn loads..

Atb

Terry

 

[Jelendeer]

Thats fair enough Mike.

For me i will always be thankfull i did my three for my level two with three diferent AW's on three diferent species and in diferent terrain.

Im thankfull because after my assesements in talking with them and in taking further deer i continued to learn loads..

Atb

Terry

You said it Terry, it's what you wanted to do and you have found your route to DSC2 to suit you just fine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the BDS park thing isn't just with one AW. Is it??

Regards,

Mike.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

You said it Terry, it's what you wanted to do and you have found your route to DSC2 to suit you just fine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the BDS park thing isn't just with one AW. Is it??

Regards,

Mike.

Im not sure on that Mike..

Imo it seems theres those that want a fast track to any qualification just to have it because its necessary, the cheaper and easier the better because it suits an end goal.

Then theres those that really want to learn and continue to learn after the qualification because of their love of Deer.

Where a certificate becomes diluted to such a point it holds no credibility anymore all that will happen is another certificate be invented.

Im not saying the BDS is guilty of the above sentence.

 

[Jelendeer]

Im not sure on that Mike..

Imo it seems theres those that want a fast track to any qualification just to have it because its necessary, the cheaper and easier the better because it suits an end goal.

Then theres those that really want to learn and continue to learn after the qualification because of their love of Deer.

Where a certificate becomes diluted to such a point it holds no credibility anymore all that will happen is another certificate be invented.

Im not saying the BDS is guilty of the above sentence.

But aint that the case with most things?? … There will ALWAYS be those that want a fast, cheap route to a 'qualification' for whatever reason - but I believe they are very much a minority.

Also, is the certificate becoming diluted?? … I don't think it is. It was more diluted and worthless some years ago when certain guys were 'culling' all three deer in a pub in one evening, and getting their DSC2 on nothing more than fiction!!! … Thankfully this has been outlawed by DMQ and the assessment centres, and so the DSC2 now surely has more credibility.

Most people I have come across who have done - and want to do their DSC2 - have an unprecedented hunger for more knowledge, especially professionally based knowledge, so I really don't think that has changed too much.

In my opinion it would very unfair to suggest that everyone who wanted to do their DSC2 through the BDS park route is simply after the quick-fix! … I would say that is rarely the case.

Regards,

Mike.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

But aint that the case with most things?? … There will ALWAYS be those that want a fast, cheap route to a 'qualification' for whatever reason - but I believe they are very much a minority.

Also, is the certificate becoming diluted?? … I don't think it is. It was more diluted and worthless some years ago when certain guys were 'culling' all three deer in a pub in one evening, and getting their DSC2 on nothing more than fiction!!! … Thankfully this has been outlawed by DMQ and the assessment centres, and so the DSC2 now surely has more credibility.

Most people I have come across who have done - and want to do their DSC2 - have an unprecedented hunger for more knowledge, especially professionally based knowledge, so I really don't think that has changed too much.

In my opinion it would very unfair to suggest that everyone who wanted to do their DSC2 through the BDS park route is simply after the quick-fix! … I would say that is rarely the case.

Regards,

Mike.

Mike

My last sentence stated I wasn't inferring this was the case with the BDS and im not inferring it with Jelen

But, taken from a growing number of posts on the SD id say there are quite a few that want the certificate yet show little regard for experience which would preferably be in place like others have said on real animals in the field, learning from inspecting real Lymph chains rather than bullet cards or the internet.

Atb

 

[Jelendeer]

Mike

My last sentence stated I wasn't inferring this was the case with the BDS and im not inferring it with Jelen

But, taken from a growing number of posts on the SD id say there are quite a few that want the certificate yet show little regard for experience which would preferably be in place like others have said on real animals in the field, learning from inspecting real Lymph chains rather than bullet cards or the internet.

Atb

Is there anyone who could possibly acquire DSC2 without inspecting real animals in the field/park and inspecting real lymph nodes? This goes back to what some posters have been referring to about the meat hygiene element of DSC1 being insufficient. Perhaps this is something that the BDS could suggest to DMQ, to make the meat hygiene cert part of DSC2 where the lymph nodes HAVE to be inspected.

I agree that looking at lymph nodes on disease cards and the internet just isn't sufficient to 'qualify' anyone to be able to inspect carcasses effectively.

Regs

M

 

[Apache]

I can feel an email to DMQ coming on!

 

[mereside]

Is there anyone who could possibly acquire DSC2 without inspecting real animals in the field/park and inspecting real lymph nodes? This goes back to what some posters have been referring to about the meat hygiene element of DSC1 being insufficient. Perhaps this is something that the BDS could suggest to DMQ, to make the meat hygiene cert part of DSC2 where the lymph nodes HAVE to be inspected.

I agree that looking at lymph nodes on disease cards and the internet just isn't sufficient to 'qualify' anyone to be able to inspect carcasses effectively.

Regs

M

mike this to me wants changing I would have thought most people could see it is lacking to not check at dsc1 stage for the trained hunter status the gralloch to make that part credible, mike has this ever been put forward to change aspects of the dsc system for improvements i would have thought that anyone looking at that particular module must see a better way. I really am not trying to cause agro as i genuinely wanted to learn as much as i could and will continue.
I also think having the dsc system is a good thing but like anything needs improving to make it really worthwhile ,looking at other systems abroad they spend years doing hunting exams before they even get out in the field. I also feel that the way the forestry groups are edging towards having level 2 in place more people will try to fast track to gain ground especially when you see the ratio of people coming into deer stalking to ground available.
To answer your earlier question I would not have chosen the route of doing it over a weekend I am not against shooting in a park for a part of the dsc but feel doing it with different aw and varied ground adds another dimention to the whole process
atb wayne

 

[TA6319]

I am a beginner/novice to deer stalking and I do not have any of my own ground to stalk on. I have been shooting for a lot of years and also belong to a shooting club so I would like to think I have some idea how to handle various firearms. I have completed my DSC1 which I enjoyed and learnt a lot from and at some point I will do my DSC2. Now people who have their own ground are lucky, people who like me live in the south east for example have a snow ball in hells chance of finding somewhere. I think the BDS/Jelendeer course for me could be a way forward. I hasten to add that I have a stalk booked and plan on doing more in the future. I enjoy learning so any course that I do is just the start.

 

[stratts]

Is there anyone who could possibly acquire DSC2 without inspecting real animals in the field/park and inspecting real lymph nodes? This goes back to what some posters have been referring to about the meat hygiene element of DSC1 being insufficient. Perhaps this is something that the BDS could suggest to DMQ, to make the meat hygiene cert part of DSC2 where the lymph nodes HAVE to be inspected.

I agree that looking at lymph nodes on disease cards and the internet just isn't sufficient to 'qualify' anyone to be able to inspect carcasses effectively.

Regs

M

You got that right matey. On my DSC1 course we did the classroom stuff, looked at the slides, I read up and tried to learn the various lymph nodes beforehand and we watched a gralloch being performed at the larder. BUT, nothing prepares you enough for the 1st gralloch and inspection like I had to do on my own, with a partially ruptured rumen in failing light with a head torch. This only comes with experience I guess.

I was satisfied all was well for my own consumption but I need more field practice for sure,

Stratts

 

[Paul at Fechan]

I think we have to remember that DSC1 as an award at an entry standard across a broad range, but is mainly about knowledge and understanding with practical elements in shooting. The gralloching can't be hands on practical at this stage and needs to be done in the field ideally with an experienced person to guide and support you outside of this training. At dsc1 it could never been practical to provide each candidate with a deer to gralloch!

Candidates preparing for dsc2 need to practice gralloching and than needs dead deer, whether they shoot them or a buddy out stalking makes little difference but you need practice and repetition.

 

[timbrayford]

I think we have to remember that DSC1 as an award at an entry standard across a broad range, but is mainly about knowledge and understanding with practical elements in shooting. The gralloching can't be hands on practical at this stage and needs to be done in the field ideally with an experienced person to guide and support you outside of this training. At dsc1 it could never been practical to provide each candidate with a deer to gralloch!

Candidates preparing for dsc2 need to practice gralloching and than needs dead deer, whether they shoot them or a buddy out stalking makes little difference but you need practice and repetition.

I gained some really useful experience by volunteering to assist with the gralloching & lardering of some local park deer that were being culled in return for practical instruction.

atb Tim

 

[jcampbellsmith]

I think we have to remember that DSC1 as an award at an entry standard across a broad range, but is mainly about knowledge and understanding with practical elements in shooting. The gralloching can't be hands on practical at this stage and needs to be done in the field ideally with an experienced person to guide and support you outside of this training. At dsc1 it could never been practical to provide each candidate with a deer to gralloch!

Candidates preparing for dsc2 need to practice gralloching and than needs dead deer, whether they shoot them or a buddy out stalking makes little difference but you need practice and repetition.

Paul.

How times change? I shot a hind when I did my DSC I with Highland College at Badanloch Estate. Indeed all the candidates shot at least one red deer during the course. The course started on a Sunday evening and finished on the Friday morning. The days were spent in the field and the evenings were spent studying and sitting the various tests.

Regards

JCS

 

[stratts]

Paul.

How times change? I shot a hind when I did my DSC I with Highland College at Badanloch Estate. Indeed all the candidates shot at least one red deer during the course. The course started on a Sunday evening and finished on the Friday morning. The days were spent in the field and the evenings were spent studying and sitting the various tests.

Regards

JCS

Blimey did the rifles only come with open sights in them days?! Interesting how things have (ahem) 'progressed' over the years then!!

 

[sikamalc]

Making assumptions that those posting on this subject with Level 2 are the main people complaining and would probably go down the park route given the choice again, if offered it is rather a tall order!!

My last deer on my Level 2 was in the Scottish high lands north of Inverness in late November at about 3 in the afternoon on red hinds and a drag off in the almost pitch black!!

I would rather see someone put the commitment into learning a gaining enough knowledge to complete their 3 deer, than run around a fenced area pushing deer all day long to shoot 3 of them and then say with hand on heart that they have achieved and deserve Level 2. I for one had the fortune to accomplish mine on my lease in Scotland and the final one on a 24,000 acre estate.
How can you equate the extraction between a red deer on a Scottish hill side to carting a park Fallow off to a larder in the back of a landrover?

Worlds apart I would say!

 

[Apache]

Does making the execution of level 2 harder make it mean more? I'm not sure it does.

I was stalking reds in the very north of Scotland this October and we didn't drag a red a single inch............

 

[sikamalc]

Does making the execution of level 2 make it mean more? I'm not sure it does.

I was stalking reds in the very north of Scotland this October and we didn't drag a red a single inch............

Part of Level 2 takes into account health and safety, and extracting your deer and presenting it to the larder. So easy enough when its a Muntjac or Roe, but when it comes to extracting a large Fallow Buck from a 40acre field and no road access or extracting a Red stag or hind from a Scottish hillside there is a mile of difference in my opinion, to shooting 3 deer on a park.

Having said that it can be difficult on park culls to choose and take out the right beast, as I have had some experience of park culling in several places, but to me, and as I said in my opinion its not stalking as in the wild.

 

[nuttyspaniel]

I think we have to remember that DSC1 as an award at an entry standard across a broad range, but is mainly about knowledge and understanding with practical elements in shooting. The gralloching can't be hands on practical at this stage and needs to be done in the field ideally with an experienced person to guide and support you outside of this training. At dsc1 it could never been practical to provide each candidate with a deer to gralloch!

Candidates preparing for dsc2 need to practice gralloching and than needs dead deer, whether they shoot them or a buddy out stalking makes little difference but you need practice and repetition.

Spot on Paul.


Nutty

 

[scubadog]

Making assumptions that those posting on this subject with Level 2 are the main people complaining and would probably go down the park route given the choice again, if offered it is rather a tall order!!

My last deer on my Level 2 was in the Scottish high lands north of Inverness in late November at about 3 in the afternoon on red hinds and a drag off in the almost pitch black!!

I would rather see someone put the commitment into learning a gaining enough knowledge to complete their 3 deer, than run around a fenced area pushing deer all day long to shoot 3 of them and then say with hand on heart that they have achieved and deserve Level 2. I for one had the fortune to accomplish mine on my lease in Scotland and the final one on a 24,000 acre estate.
How can you equate the extraction between a red deer on a Scottish hill side to carting a park Fallow off to a larder in the back of a landrover?

Worlds apart I would say!

So would you suggest that those of us with only access to Roe or easy extracts should not be allowed to complete the DSC2, just because stalking in somewhere else is harder??

 

[sikamalc]

So would you suggest that those of us with only access to Roe or easy extracts should not be allowed to complete the DSC2, just because stalking in somewhere else is harder??

No.

Because that candidate may have already stalked harder areas, this would show in his past history entry on his portfolio. And I am saying that stalking deer in a fenced area is not what I would call wild stalking and as I said, in my opinion, is or can be too easy. It seems that for the right price and providing you know your way around a carcase you just pay and more than likely pass in a day.

Stalking is about knowing the animal, the environment they live in, the weather (which wont make much difference in a deer park, as the deer are there somewhere). These are my thoughts and personal opinions.

ATB