level two with the BDS for £492 for two days.

[6pointer]

I agree with Malc two deer would be plenty for proof ideally one from open ground / hill and one from wooded ground. I have witnessed many many DMQ 2 and need to say that the third stalk is normally just no necessary.
The take up for Lev 2 has been pour even when FC made it a requirement to stalking on public ground. Some one said that I wanted to make it easier that is not true a hard worked stalk is always the way but to repeat the same just for cash is not correct.
Fenced in deer that have had lots of public attention is not the way to sort out the bridge to far problem the DMQ requires.

 

[Jelendeer]

So Malc, it seems that you are suggesting that those who complete DSC2 in a park don't, or won't want to learn about the animal, or the environment they live in, and the weather? In my opinion, learning about deer and their natural history is a progressive thing. We are all still learning - including me after 34 years in the profession! - so I reckon its a little bit patronising to those who are looking to take up the DSC2 option through BDS or Jelen.

I think you're wrong there!! (That is my personal opinion!)

 

[monarman]

so...... my wood where I stalk is 90 acres, it is a coniferous plantation in the mature stage wit a network of rides. I have only Roe deer in this plantation as it is in an area where no other species are present. I am wanting to do my level 2 and I have an AW who is prepared to come and witness my three stalks and will do it for a fixed fee that I can afford.
I go out in my 90 acre plantation in the morning with the AW and stalk and cull a beast, then I perform the gralloch and carry out the carcass inspection in the field before heading back to the larder and hanging the beast.
Later that day myself and the AW go back to my 90 acre plantation where I manage to shoot another beast, again I perform the gralloch and inspection, the AW asks me some different questions and again back to hang the beast.
This is repeated again the next morning, so that's three deer on three separate stalks as stipulated by DMQ. I pass my level after my portfolio is completed and assessed.

My question is....... did I not deserve my level two because I shot ONE species of deer in only 90 acres of ground whilst being witnessed by only one person?

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Blimey did the rifles only come with open sights in them days?! Interesting how things have (ahem) 'progressed' over the years then!!

Checking my records I can see I did the course in Jan 2002. I used my first 260 Rem (Ruger MKII) + Swarovski 8 x 50 scope and no sound moderator. Regards JCS

 

[Overlay]

L2 is about being a competent all round stalker of Deer, from start to finish, I can't for one minute believe that someone up for their L2 would firstly be able to pull the wool over the eyes of a AW and secondly if you are not ready why have they put in for it in the first place, anyone and everyone is nervous without a doubt on a L2 stalk no matter how experienced, the inability or lack of experience in performing to the required standard would be pretty obvious to any AW worth his salt

my thought are that potential L2 could and or maybe will have to have a mock full blown stalk with a AW concluded with a report to state that person has been assessed and proposed for L2 portfolio in full.
this on its own will utilise AW interests and standards

When you look at L1 candidates passed and the number who actually apply for the L2 there is a considerable difference in numbers.

The grey area. - who do I go or contact to get ready for the L2. Can I afford it ?, guidance on where to stalk, there are plenty of stalkers with L1 who would like to gain recognition of L2 but are stuck in a rut for whatever reason.

Recently I was having a conversation with a stalker near to where I live, he grasses a lot of deer per annum, has a good larder facility and he has a good knowledge for deer, habitat, environment the full package, I have known him a long time and he his, overall a damn good stalker, when it asked him if he is going for L2, his immediate reply was " I had decided to put in for it and contacted a AW and the guy was more interested in what he would get out out of it himself rather than the candidate". Needless to say he didn't bother.

Going back to the Wadhurst park deer scenario, that L2 portfolio would have been perfect for Gary, huge amount of experience in all areas, a decent stalker and keen as mustard until he hit the proverbial wall, a chance to show his qualities and experience.

when I completed mine I had two admirable AW's (Jim and Peter) couldn't have wished for two better people to assess my ability and portfolio, combined with Gary's experience and the experience I had doing my portfolio is one of the reasons I chose to become an AW myself.

Wadhurst may not be everyone's idea of perfect stalking experience, but for the truly experienced stalker it will prove to a worthy cause, cost effective and fulfilling to the right candidate, if you are not experienced in all areas it is back to training. Not failure. Highlight weak points. Carry on learning.

some candidates apparently have 15 or 16 outings, that can't all possibly be to having no deer in the sights, AW outings should be, even if a blank on grassing deer and not partially written up, broken down and a positive forward and positive planning for the candidate to take on board and training towards the goal after each stalk, there is a positive need to give the candidate as much help as possible post a non productive stalk of which he has paid for, my thoughts are still L2 candidates should have a stalk with a AW to ensure the candidate is proficient to proceed, the write up because it will be within the portfolio time could be condensed into the previous history for the portfolio

it ain't all bad news. . Is it


ATB



Phil

 

[nuttyspaniel]

so...... my wood where I stalk is 90 acres, it is a coniferous plantation in the mature stage wit a network of rides. I have only Roe deer in this plantation as it is in an area where no other species are present. I am wanting to do my level 2 and I have an AW who is prepared to come and witness my three stalks and will do it for a fixed fee that I can afford.
I go out in my 90 acre plantation in the morning with the AW and stalk and cull a beast, then I perform the gralloch and carry out the carcass inspection in the field before heading back to the larder and hanging the beast.
Later that day myself and the AW go back to my 90 acre plantation where I manage to shoot another beast, again I perform the gralloch and inspection, the AW asks me some different questions and again back to hang the beast.
This is repeated again the next morning, so that's three deer on three separate stalks as stipulated by DMQ. I pass my level after my portfolio is completed and assessed.

My question is....... did I not deserve my level two because I shot ONE species of deer in only 90 acres of ground whilst being witnessed by only one person?

Of course you deserved it. I think you are perhaps reading more into some of the replies than meant by them.


Nutty

 

[Overlay]

so...... my wood where I stalk is 90 acres, it is a coniferous plantation in the mature stage wit a network of rides. I have only Roe deer in this plantation as it is in an area where no other species are present. I am wanting to do my level 2 and I have an AW who is prepared to come and witness my three stalks and will do it for a fixed fee that I can afford.
I go out in my 90 acre plantation in the morning with the AW and stalk and cull a beast, then I perform the gralloch and carry out the carcass inspection in the field before heading back to the larder and hanging the beast.
Later that day myself and the AW go back to my 90 acre plantation where I manage to shoot another beast, again I perform the gralloch and inspection, the AW asks me some different questions and again back to hang the beast.
This is repeated again the next morning, so that's three deer on three separate stalks as stipulated by DMQ. I pass my level after my portfolio is completed and assessed.

My question is....... did I not deserve my level two because I shot ONE species of deer in only 90 acres of ground whilst being witnessed by only one person?

Don't think anyone would have problem with that at all, all carried out correctly to satisfy the assessor and AW, my only itsy bitsy thingy, might have been better having one of the stalks with another AW as it was over a weekend, but not neccesity.

my thoughts, as long as you complied to the L2 portfolio criteria, bang on the money, nicely turned out result and all in, very very nice and well earned result in a normal stalking environment. - A BIG WELL DONE Sir.

atb

phil

 

[sikamalc]

So Malc, it seems that you are suggesting that those who complete DSC2 in a park don't, or won't want to learn about the animal, or the environment they live in, and the weather? In my opinion, learning about deer and their natural history is a progressive thing. We are all still learning - including me after 34 years in the profession! - so I reckon its a little bit patronising to those who are looking to take up the DSC2 option through BDS or Jelen.

I think you're wrong there!! (That is my personal opinion!)

And where did I say that anyone taking level two in a park would not want to learn ? Please don't put words in my mouth, that's getting near the edge of the line with me!! You offer park shooting and signing off Level 2 in a park. You think its right, I thinks its wrong, and please don't call me patronising.

I don't agree with it, and never will. Also throughout this thread you and your company have not been mentioned, so don't get so touchy matey

 

[Paul at Fechan]

So Malc, it seems that you are suggesting that those who complete DSC2 in a park don't, or won't want to learn about the animal, or the environment they live in, and the weather? In my opinion, learning about deer and their natural history is a progressive thing. We are all still learning - including me after 34 years in the profession! - so I reckon its a little bit patronising to those who are looking to take up the DSC2 option through BDS or Jelen.

I think you're wrong there!! (That is my personal opinion!)

Well not really, I'm lucky in the respect I have access readily to 5 species of deer that I can access with L2 candidates from the North Highlands to Norfolk. If you focus on one species in one environment such as a park well that's fine in terms of a level 2 award but misses the soul of truely wild deer stalking with everything the uk has to offer. It's hardly a steal though when you add in fuel, b&b and extras and a lot of people see it as canned hunting. (Just from what others have said)

But the wider point is the park level 2 is a means to an end, getting the award following the path of least resistance. There are no gold stars in DSC2 but it's clear that many people feel it's not in the spirit of the chase.

 

[monarman]

My post was purely theoretical, but could quite easily of been the case. I was pointing out that I shot only one species in one area that was significantly smaller than a deer park and with only one AW.
It was a response to several points made in several different posts on this thread.

sorry for any confusion chaps and thanks for the kind remarks. I actually did my level 2 in 2003.

An AW is an AW, they are there to do a job, it should matter if you use one or ten! as long as they do they're job correctly.
I never used Two rifles on my level one shooting test 'just to make sure I was up to standard'.

 

[Jelendeer]

Well not really, I'm lucky in the respect I have access readily to 5 species of deer that I can access with L2 candidates from the North Highlands to Norfolk. If you focus on one species in one environment such as a park well that's fine in terms of a level 2 award but misses the soul of truely wild deer stalking with everything the uk has to offer. It's hardly a steal though when you add in fuel, b&b and extras and a lot of people see it as canned hunting. (Just from what others have said)

But the wider point is the park level 2 is a means to an end, getting the award following the path of least resistance. There are no gold stars in DSC2 but it's clear that many people feel it's not in the spirit of the chase.

Thats all well and good Paul. There's bound to be people against it, - Its not in the spirit of the chase? But surely DSC2 isn't about spirits of chases, or who can have the hardest stalk (ooer! sound a bit rude!), but its about the candidate fulfilling the performance criteria as required by their AW. Many who are doing their DSC2 will have many years ahead of them to learn as much or as little as they wish.

Who are we to decide if somebody has or hasn't learned a load of stuff during acquiring their DSC2??? …

I understand why some people (NOT ALL) are against it - It APPEARS to me that some (NOT ALL) people are of the mentality of "why should they get it easy when I had it so hard? I honestly feel that the resistance is fuelled by jealousy in cases (BUT NOT ALL!!!).

Easy, Hard, Quick, Slow? … Who cares, as long as the candidates satisfy the AW? - Job done!

Regs

M

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Mike..

Its the last sentence mate, easy, quick, hard, slow who cares..

It will only be a matter of time before an even shorter, cheaper level 1 is offered by someone.

Level 1&2 over a week will be next taking somebody whose never seen a deer to eligable for a forestry lease etc

Brilliant !!!

Regards

Terry

 

[Jelendeer]

Mike..

Its the last sentence mate, easy, quick, hard, slow who cares..

It will only be a matter of time before an even shorter, cheaper level 1 is offered by someone.

Level 1&2 over a week will be next taking somebody whose never seen a deer to eligable for a forestry lease etc

Brilliant !!!

Regards

Terry

Hi Terry,

Somebody already pointed out that DSC2 doesn't automatically qualify someone for a Forestry lease. In fact its only a tiny part of it!

I don't think we'll ever get to the stage where DSC1 & 2 will be done in a week! … It will take several weeks to get their Cert back, and then another week to get a portfolio through, so you might be talking of a month or two, maybe more!

BUT while they're waiting, they could come on a Pre-DSC2 course to learn some stuff

TTFN

Regards,

Mike.

 

[cookingfat]

Much has been written and said though out this thread about how people can get though there level 2,
It would seem that now there is a fast track method being offered by the bds and others which involves shooting park deer that in my mind makes a mockery of level 2 as a qualification, not because it's easier, just because it's different to shooting wild deer and the candidate having and displaying the ability to find wild deer.
As i have said before I guess now in our fast track money making world it is OK

Good luck to all those who wish to kid them selves that shooting park deer is the same as shooting wild deer, sorry for being so old fashioned,
I am not against new ways of doing things I just think this is a wrong way for the bds to make money.
,

 

[willie_gunn]

Sorry to get back to basics, but DSC level 2 is "a practically based qualification which enables candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically." I don't see anything in there about it qualifying you as a stalking ninja, nor does it say you are somehow the world's authority on deer, just that you can legally, safely and humanely cull deer and then deal with the carcass afterwards.

If someone can meet these criteria, whether in the highlands of Scotland, in woodland in the Shires, on the urban fringe in Glasgow, on the Fens in Norfolk, in a park or wherever, then they meet the criteria. Trying to specify the number of species, the type of terrain, etc will do nothing except make it more costly and more elitist. That doesn't mean "dumb it down" either, it just means use the same defined and achievable criteria for everyone regardless.

As of today, 4,280 people have completed DSC2, and congratulations to each and every one of them. Any attempt to differentiate between the presumed "difficulty" of them achieving those same standards is subjective.

I wonder just how many of those 4,280 are members of this site?

willie_gunn

 

[monarman]

So if the level two is about a candidate being able to find wild deer..... how come when an AW takes you on to his ground he 'guides you' surely that is detracting from you finding the wild deer?, forgive me if i'm wrong but for example...those who have had their stalk witnessed on the hill, did they just go to an estate and head off to the hill with AW in tow and find the deer themselves...?? Then decide which beast /s to take as part of the estate management plan?.....
So you're saying that a random stalker turns up to your ground and is expected to know where they are going, where the boundaries are, the places where the deer are likely to be, be able to decide which animals to cull as part of the estates management plan, know the best way for extraction.....

Finding deer is not part of the level two.... Stalking deer is. Once the deer has been found the AW then starts his or her assessment.
If you as an AW take someone onto your ground and charge them for doing their level two stalk without them having stalked and gralloched a deer etc. then I can only say that you are the reason that the BDS have come up with this scheme. It is not an inferior way of getting level two.... it is a way that people with limited funds can do their level 2. they fulfil the criteria laid out by DMQ the same as anyone else.

Why should it matter if someone is getting their level two in a weekend and then applying for a lease with the forestry commission assuming they fill all the other criteria? they are as entitled as anyone else. Perhaps the forestry commission and the other forestry management companies should add the criteria that lease holders and syndicate members should live no more than 3 hours drive from the ground.... that would get folk bitching and up in arms!

The BDS and whoever, are supplying a service that is inline with DMQ regulations and it's upto the individual if they want to take up that particular service offer or go elsewhere.

Simple

no need for anymore bitching


level 2 is level 2 simple as that.


Wise words also from Willie gunn as usual

starting to become a ****ing joke this deerstalking theses days! Cant even agree on training that is designed with the welfare of deer in mind!

 

[Overlay]

So if the level two is about a candidate being able to find wild deer..... how come when an AW takes you on to his ground he 'guides you' surely that is detracting from you finding the wild deer?, forgive me if i'm wrong but for example...those who have had their stalk witnessed on the hill, did they just go to an estate and head off to the hill with AW in tow and find the deer themselves...?? Then decide which beast /s to take as part of the estate management plan?.....
So you're saying that a random stalker turns up to your ground and is expected to know where they are going, where the boundaries are, the places where the deer are likely to be, be able to decide which animals to cull as part of the estates management plan, know the best way for extraction.....

Finding deer is not part of the level two.... Stalking deer is. Once the deer has been found the AW then starts his or her assessment.
If you as an AW take someone onto your ground and charge them for doing their level two stalk without them having stalked and gralloched a deer etc. then I can only say that you are the reason that the BDS have come up with this scheme. It is not an inferior way of getting level two.... it is a way that people with limited funds can do their level 2. they fulfil the criteria laid out by DMQ the same as anyone else.

Why should it matter if someone is getting their level two in a weekend and then applying for a lease with the forestry commission assuming they fill all the other criteria? they are as entitled as anyone else. Perhaps the forestry commission and the other forestry management companies should add the criteria that lease holders and syndicate members should live no more than 3 hours drive from the ground.... that would get folk bitching and up in arms!

The BDS and whoever, are supplying a service that is inline with DMQ regulations and it's upto the individual if they want to take up that particular service offer or go elsewhere.

Simple

no need for anymore bitching


level 2 is level 2 simple as that.


Wise words also from Willie gunn as usual

starting to become a ****ing joke this deerstalking theses days! Cant even agree on training that is designed with the welfare of deer in mind!

plus + + one on that Monarman and Willie_gunn.

I can't see the problem for Wadhurst, for some reason course providers reduce or water down course days, then criticise BDS for providing possibly an effective way to have a benchmark for standards in a controlled environment and if you look at costs using existing methods - cost effective.

No one is going to place money into something that they know they won't pass, and you won't pass if your not up to scratch - simple and as clear as that, previous stalking experience is the hub to being successful in L2 there is no easy route


i believe it would better to get some history behind the Wadhurst DSC2 and then sieve through it and make some comment

Give it a chance and comment when there is a comparative history of candidates compared to the system in situ at the moment, that's got to be better for the deer and stalking overall


atb

phil

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Willie Gunn and Monarman i agree with a lot you have said.

My point is at this time there are courses/training being offered in a shorter time scale to fit ever busy lives and the economic purse.

Cant wait to dig this thread up next year or the year after when things have changed yet further and level 1&2 over a week are being offered or dsc1 with such a fab home learning package it can be taken in a single day in the classroom..

Time will prove me right or wrong

Good Luck to anybody doing level 1 youll be a more knowledgeable stalker with it than without it

 

[timbrayford]

I thought that the criteria for passing DSC 1 & 2 was to attain the required standard, surely apart from the 3 year limit on L2 timescales are irrelevant?

atb Tim

 

[palmer_mike]

I thought that the criteria for passing DSC 1 & 2 was to attain the required standard, surely apart from the 3 year limit on L2 timescales are irrelevant?

atb Tim

+1