.243 vs 6.5 dilemma

Can't get my head round why people think 223/243 /6.5 are any more accurate than the bigger calibre often here people saying the smaller calibres are better for presision shooting, that can't be right not at stalking ranges, plus there's the softer recoiling aspect of smaller calibres, most people in the UK shoot moderated rifles so recoil should not come into it. Mayby on the range but not in a stalking situation. Like to know who actually remembers the rifle kicking when taking a shot at an animal, aim small hit small.


I have experience it many times. Someone who cant shoot for toffee with a 270 or 338 but give them a 243 and suddenly they are DSC1 level. Its all about recoil anticipation. Mods make a difference but not That much. People over grip more powerful rifles and pre flinch. It takes a fair amount of practice to overcome this natural reaction.

Then theres muzzle flip and general movement in the rifle before the bullet exits the barrel. Its infinitesimal but it makes a difference. This is why long range rifles are so dammed heavy to soak up all that energy and reduce flinch reaction in the shooter

Personaly my groupings improve as the caliber goes down and he weight of the rifle goes up. My 22.250 weighs a ton and shoots tiny tiny groups. My Sako 75 shot 1" groups with the standard stock and 3/4 with the heavy laminate target tactical stock.

None of my 308s could get consistent sub 1" groups and that includes two Blasers and i know my first shot is the best i will achieve as after that despite 35years of shooting I still over grip and over anticipate.
 
it's all those who can't manage a mature shooters calibre, they feel they need to justify it this way.

There's also the group who've only been allowed a .243 by the police, and to compensate for their insecurities they'll argue the .243 till death do them part.

anyone who knows how to shoot can shoot a 30cal or more as accurately as a .243, and retain their sight picture. you will tire quicker if shooting strings of shots, that's true.

as far as the comments around 'pro's' preferring light fast calibres, yes, it's been seen in the UK too...it's not because they 'know how to shoot' BS..it's because ammo is cheaper, they take more shots so prefer lower recoil and noise, and usually, they'll be walking that fine line of taking head/neck shots where a light and fast frangible bullet is preferable..but that's not stalking or hunting, that's culling we're talking about..different game.

So explain my view in that I shot 303 competitively or years, own a 308 6.5 55 243 and 22/250 and I agree fully the 243 is A: adequate to kill any UK deer B: easier to shoot accurately than a 30cal

Id happily bet £100 against anyone that I can shoot my 22 250 better than they can shoot their 30 cal hunting rifle out to say 150m best 10 shot group 5 prone, and 5 standing off sticks

I have practiced this for fun and every time I seem to get better groups from the smaller calibres.
 
Just get a 7 x 64 and all will be good. :) :stir:

David.
Actually, joking apart if non lead bullets become compulsory for stalkers there might very good reason to go for some of the older calibres, (The Swede, 7 x 64, 7 x 57 etc) because they were already designed with a long throat because they were originally designed for quite heavy bullets which gives room for a longer bullet that will be the norm in non lead bullets. It might come about that although these modern cartridges are very accurate they are designed to have a short cartridge which is placed close to the lands.

Just a thought.

David.
 
Actually, joking apart if non lead bullets become compulsory for stalkers there might very good reason to go for some of the older calibres, (The Swede, 7 x 64, 7 x 57 etc) because they were already designed with a long throat because they were originally designed for quite heavy bullets which gives room for a longer bullet that will be the norm in non lead bullets. It might come about that although these modern cartridges are very accurate they are designed to have a short cartridge which is placed close to the lands.

Just a thought.

David.
YES, thumbs up!
 
Simple answer to this whole debate:

If you mostly shoot smaller deer - ie Roe, Muntjac, CWD etc - then 243

If you mostly shoot bigger deer - Red, Sika etc then 7x57 (or one of the 6.5s or 270 or 308)

If you mostly shoot bigger deer, plus Wild Boar, plus plains game - 30-06 or 300 Win Mag.

A 243 with the correct bullet put in the correct place, just like any other calibre is more than capable. Problems start when you use a varmint bullet to try a through shoulder shot on a red stag - and the same issue will be whether you use a 223, 243 or 308 varmint bullet.

Where some 243's are challenged is the requirement in Scotland for 100gn min bullet weight, and some 243 rifles don't shoot some 100gn bullets very well. My Heym for example shoots well with short stumpy 100gn and 105gn bullets - eg RWS, Norma or Geco Softpoints, but tried some 100gn Boat tails and they went all over the place. Most factory 100gn loads should work well as that is what the 243 is designed to shoot. Any non shooting, is probably more down to ammo brand variances than anything else.

Also there is (as far as I know) no 100gn lead free 243 bullet on the market. I have no doubt an 80gn 243 Fox bullet would work just as well on a red deer North of the Scottish Border as it does to the South, but its not legal.
 
Simple answer to this whole debate:

If you mostly shoot smaller deer - ie Roe, Muntjac, CWD etc - then 243

If you mostly shoot bigger deer - Red, Sika etc then 7x57 (or one of the 6.5s or 270 or 308)

If you mostly shoot bigger deer, plus Wild Boar, plus plains game - 30-06 or 300 Win Mag.

A 243 with the correct bullet put in the correct place, just like any other calibre is more than capable. Problems start when you use a varmint bullet to try a through shoulder shot on a red stag - and the same issue will be whether you use a 223, 243 or 308 varmint bullet.

Where some 243's are challenged is the requirement in Scotland for 100gn min bullet weight, and some 243 rifles don't shoot some 100gn bullets very well. My Heym for example shoots well with short stumpy 100gn and 105gn bullets - eg RWS, Norma or Geco Softpoints, but tried some 100gn Boat tails and they went all over the place. Most factory 100gn loads should work well as that is what the 243 is designed to shoot. Any non shooting, is probably more down to ammo brand variances than anything else.

Also there is (as far as I know) no 100gn lead free 243 bullet on the market. I have no doubt an 80gn 243 Fox bullet would work just as well on a red deer North of the Scottish Border as it does to the South, but its not legal.

Are you making the mistake of perpetuating the myth that the .243 is a varmint round? Because it is a myth the .243
was not designed as such though it can make a very good varminting caliber.
I would also ask why if .243 was not suitable for reds why it was the caliber of choice of a great many professional
Highland stalkers myself included, it certainly was not because we had no other choice.
 
Are you making the mistake of perpetuating the myth that the .243 is a varmint round? Because it is a myth the .243
was not designed as such though it can make a very good varminting caliber.
I would also ask why if .243 was not suitable for reds why it was the caliber of choice of a great many professional
Highland stalkers myself included, it certainly was not because we had no other choice.

no i am not making that mistake and i will happily use 243 on reds, especially west coast reds. However, if i was primarily an open ground stalker with big red stags then i would go 7x57 etc. i just had a 243 for many years and have shot many reds with it. However now that i have a 7x57 as well, thats what i take if shooting red deer.
 
I only have 243 because i mostly use it on fox,muntjac and occasionlay roe so i dont have the need to go bigger. I'm sure the creedmoor is more suitable for bigger but my approach has always been have one cailbre that is easy to feed and versatile then get good with it. In my humble opinion people have too many guns/calibres. I do understand why and theres nothing like having a new toy but you need to spend time with a rifle to really be good with it. Go with wahatever calibre you think ticks all the boxes and stick with it(apologies for the self righteous tone)
 
Lot of sense in that @Whitester. When I get off the throne I'll post a photo from the last gig down the valley, we had way too many rifles (and they aren't even all in the photo). The upshot of this extravagance was the both mates that joined me had trouble with one of their new toys and in both instances it cost them deer.

I made a couple of rookie errors by mixing up yards and metres now that I have both MOA and MRAD scopes, really really annoying. Keep forgetting to change the range units when I switch rifle. Doh.

So there is a lot of sense is keeping it as simple as possible.

You can also say the same about finding a good load and sticking with it. Curiosity gets the better of us sometimes and we just can't help ourselves. I've recently committed to not trying any new bullets in any of my rifles unless I repurpose them, and have just sold the unopened packs of bright & shiny new bullets I have yet to try, GameChangers, 6mm ELD-X, etc.
 
I only have 243 because i mostly use it on fox,muntjac and occasionlay roe so i dont have the need to go bigger. I'm sure the creedmoor is more suitable for bigger but my approach has always been have one cailbre that is easy to feed and versatile then get good with it. In my humble opinion people have too many guns/calibres. I do understand why and theres nothing like having a new toy but you need to spend time with a rifle to really be good with it. Go with wahatever calibre you think ticks all the boxes and stick with it(apologies for the self righteous tone)

True enough . I'd say how many firearms I own , but most wouldn't believe me . That being said , I tend to use one or two rifles pretty much exclusively for serious hunting . One in particular , an old Remington 725 in 30/06 , with 180 bullets , seems to be in my hands a lot . I love shooting and will shamelessly buy , barter and trade them when ever the opportunity arises , but I usually go with something I'm very familiar with when after game .

AB
 
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Missing from the photo are two .243s, one .22 TCM and a Desert Tech SRS A1.

Things can get too complicated, for sure.

Hey @PKL would you like to have a go with a genuine real man's rifle, #6 above, something that will make your antiques feel like fairground popguns!

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Are you making the mistake of perpetuating the myth that the .243 is a varmint round? Because it is a myth the .243
was not designed as such though it can make a very good varminting caliber.
I would also ask why if .243 was not suitable for reds why it was the caliber of choice of a great many professional
Highland stalkers myself included, it certainly was not because we had no other choice.
The 222 was also at a point the choice of professional red deer cullers, at one point.

But let’s leave that,..look at it another way, what other calibers have you used with similar suitable bullets and shot placements, and what was the terminal performance differences to the 243?

I ask this as moving up to 7mm and 30cal, having used both 6mm and 6.5mm substantially, I found significant improvement in deer dying a lot faster ..to put it bluntly

Just my opinion, but I’ve been around the block a few times on calibers and chambering a and their use on medium to large uk game, so whilst I might seem persistent in my opinions, I feel they’re justifiably well for formed
 
Cheers for all the input gents. Certainly sounds like the .243 is up to it but there may be better options. I’ve got a slot for one so I’ll keep it in case I see a gun I like but I might just sway over to the Creedmoor for something different but maybe more effective.


Cheers!
 
Any chance of giving us a low down on what each of those are @dodgyknees, incl. cals., scopes, scope mag ranges, etc?
  1. Tikka T3 .308 Win, Zeiss 3-15x44, 18"
  2. Howa Varmint 6.5 Creedmoor, Bushnell Tactical Elite 6-24x50, 24"
  3. CZ 455 Varmint .22LR, Vector 4.5-18x50, 16"
  4. Tikka T3 Superlite .223 Rem, Vortex HST 4-16x44, 22"
  5. CZ 452 American .22LR, Vortex (can't remember model), 20"
  6. Stiller / Shilen custom 28 Nosler, Athlon Ares ETR 4.5-30x56, 26"
  7. Remington Model 7 7mm SAUM, Vortex PST 4-16x50, 22"
  8. Tikka T3 Super Varmint .223 Rem, Sightron S-TAC 4-20x50, 24"
Not photographed above are:
  1. 2x Howa .243, Weaver Grand Slam 4-16x44, 20"
  2. CZ 527 Varmint custom .22 TCM, S&B 1.2-6x24, 14"
  3. Desert Tech SRS with 6.5 Creedmoor barrel, Bushnell Tactical Elite 3.5-21x50 DMRII, 19"

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All the rifles are properly sorted shooters. The Creedmoors and two 7mm rifles are used for longer range shooting. The 28 Nosler is a proper long range rifle used for 750m+. The only one I don't much like is the Desert Tech. Just not my scene and despite the advantages of its modularity and short length, its too heavy. Bloody accurate though.
 
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