Anyone want to warn me away from any of this kit?

neutron619

Well-Known Member
Hello chaps,

Happily, My Mrs and I came up with a reasonable financial arrangement for paying for stalking gear today, so I'm able to start planning what I want to buy with a number in mind - that number is £1200. I already have a pretty good idea of the setup I want, so this post is to ask whether anyone knows any reasons I shouldn't buy the equipment I've listed.

That said, I am only interested in hearing reasons such as "this item is known to be unreliable" or "this item has a known manufacturing / design defect" and the like. I respect the extensive experience of others here and apologise if this offends, but I am not interested in hearing from anyone who thinks I should be spending the money in vastly different proportions (i.e. a £200 rifle and a £700 scope) or who feels that any of the brands I've listed are crap but can't give a specific reason why the particular model I've listed is likely to prove faulty / unreliable / unsuitable. I would love to be able to splash out £10,000 on a stalking setup and to be able to post here in proper "willy-waving" fashion about a custom rifle an obscure (but appropriate) calibre and Zeiss optics worth more than my house and so on - it isn't going to happen.

My criteria for the stuff I've listed below is as follows:

  • I will hopefully be hunting all six UK species at some point, but I know that I will initially have the opportunity to go after Muntjac, Roe, Fallow and Red. I want one gun for all of that and to have the possibility of using it for boar later on, if I feel so inclined. Ergo, I want a .308.
  • I will be shooting for the table, occasionally, rather than in any kind of professional capacity.
  • I want to run a "slow and heavy" bullet - probably an ordinary softpoint, but we'll see. I am convinced by the argument of using a slow and heavy bullet (i.e. 170gr from a .308 @ 2500fps) rather than a light, fast one (i.e. 130gr from a .270 @ 3000fps) as being the most likely to reduce meat damage. I recognise that shot placement is also key. I also recognise that others will have different opinions, but I owe it to the people who have given their time to teach me what little I know to try their way first.
  • Related to the above, I have a kid on the way and won't get to do a lot of stalking in the next year or so. Frequency of trips out will increase in time. That's important because I particularly want to maximise the amount of food I get from each carcass - stalking will be a way of finding relatively cheap meat, learning to hunt and having fun at the same time.
  • Most of my stalking will be done during daylight hours, at short range in a woodland setting. I don't need expensive optics which give me maximum shooting time or maximum detail at dawn or dusk. For one, I'm a wildfowler at heart - if I have to go home with nothing, so be it. For two, I can't tell the difference between a £150 scope and a £1500 one at this point - I'm still learning all this stuff - so spending the extra £1350 is wasted on me.
  • I'm a musician in other areas of my existence. This is a particularly bad combination with centrefire rifles, so I need a moderator as effective as possible if I'm to stalk without ear defenders and keep my hearing in any kind of useable state.

Here is the stuff which I believe fulfils the needs I've listed:

  • Remington 700 SPS in .308 (24" barrel; 1-in-10" twist to stabilize heavy bullets; might get the detatchable magazine version if there is one).
  • Hawke Panorama EV 3-9x50mm "etched" scope. (I will take advice on the kind of reticle to get - I've played with the Hawke "sighting" program but it hasn't helped point me towards one or another, but I'd like to pick one of the ones that has some kind of gradations for longer range shooting - just in case - since a low velocity .308 bullet drops reasonably fast).
  • Wildcat Predator 12 Moderator with a good sized expansion tube. (I realise this will be heavy, as will the overall setup - I don't mind. It will maximise suppression, absorb recoil and I can carry a 9lb wildfowling gun happily enough.)
  • Leupold scope rings / mounts.

I think that lot comes to somewhere in the region of £1150. My local shop has a good deal on the Geco 170gr softpoints at the moment. I've shot them comfortably at a range day and seen a Roe cleanly killed with them, with little to no damage on inspection barring a hole straight through, so I'll start there and find something else if they don't work out.

I'm still to find a good, affordable bipod - any recommendations will be welcome.

I also need to find a sling - preferably a synthetic one with a wide strap, some kind of "friction-giving" surface like rubber to stop it slipping off my shoulder and one with a bit of "give" to make the carry easier. I know the kind I want, but it's hard to describe beyond what I've just written.

I think I've sorted out other accessories - knife (and stone), binos, bag, sticks and the like, but if anyone wants to suggest items I've forgotten, I'll either say that I'm aware of them or add them to my "to buy" list.

Sorry for the bit at the top. I know that in spite of saying that, someone will come along and tell me to buy some kind of hugely expensive scope at the expense of the rifle I want. I understand the arguments and one day I will, but for now I just need enough to get started in the way that seems good to me (and those who have taught me, who understand what I want to do). I fully expect to learn what works and what doesn't as time goes by.

With thanks for any warnings, pointers or comparable alternatives you can suggest,

Adam.
 
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If you have checked out reviews etc on all the products and consider them reasonable value for money, but more importantly they rock your boat!!
The only advise I would give is check out the S/H market for any of them in as new condition Adam.
I have a wildcat moderator on my 7mm rem mag and it works a treat, also use leupold mounts and rings with no problems.
best of luck
Paul/sinbad
 
As has been said, check out the 2nd hand markst...You dont need an expensive rifle, just one In good order...You will need good optics and i`m afraid they come a premium...Take your time and find a happy medium and remember you need to see clearly what you are shooting at...Dont forget your binoculars
 
A very thoughtful, measured and sensible approach, if I may say so. Geco ammunition is good stuff, actually made by RWS. A 150 grain bullet will do everything you want to, if for any reason you do not get on with the 170s. Enjoy the journey and very best wishes.
 
You seem to have pretty much made your mind up about what you want, and I will not try to change it, all I would say is buy the best you can afford.

If you can't afford the best of scopes so be it, we don't all have limitless funds and many of us have to make do with less than we would ideally like, you can always upgrade as and when finances allow.

Also as the previous poster said considerable savings can be made by looking at the S/H market.
 
The only one that sets alarm bells ringing for me is the Hawke scope. That is not really a suitable scope for a 308.
Look for a used fixed mag such as a Meopta, Hungarian Schmidt, Docter, Optimate, Leupold, Burris, etc..
Avoid the Hawke!
Minox BV 8x42 binos are about £150 and are about as good as you can get! Mora clipper knives are awesome for about £10 (get and orange stainless one!)
Have a look at my 'Monkey sticks' thread for a cheap but awesome set of sticks. Butler creek neoprene sling is perfect.
I think Sportsman guncentre have some very reduced Nikon scopes too.
A very sensible post which shows you are putting some serious and logical thought into your outlay.
Good luck.
MS
 
i have a hawke on a BSA Ultra and its ok but i wont buy again as it blurs sometimes and i dont think the quality is that brilliant but if your on a budget then fiar dos. I have Leupold on other rifle and its brilliant for the money. There was one on here 2nd hand ill ret which seemed like a good buy.
 
I'd echo Monkey Spanker's sentiments on the Hawke scope. Good for an air rifle, not the best option for a full bore rifle that may get a good portion of its use at the dim ends of the day.
Steer clear of the Jack Pyke rifle sling, it's very thin material and bunches up on the shoulder.
​Avoid Allen sling swivels. Both pairs I've tried failed in the same way, the first time dumping my rifle on the deck, fortunately, the second time I noticed the pin working its way out.
 
I too would try to avoid a Hawke scope on a centrefire rifle. I have one on my .22 rimfire but I wouldn't trust it on my .243
You could get a brand new CZ ZKM 550 for £576.00 and a decent second hand fixed power scope from the SD classifieds for up to £300ish, Leaving £324ish for a moderator etc.
 
dont know how much the hawke scope is but i would go for a 2nd hand 6x42 you can get s+b swaro etc for about £250. I have used cheap scopes in the past and they can be ok but i would always chose a basic format high end scope over a cheaper higher spec scope. for woodland stalking the 6x42 is a good choice regardless of budget anyway. I have a hawke sport hd 3-9 x 40 ir in my cupboard that came off a 22 rimfire i bought, i replaced it with a second hand swaro 6x42 for the increased clarity.

I know that this was not the sort of advice you were after but out of your kit its the most important along with some binos.

good luck with whatever you choose
 
+1 on the hawke scope. Get a better second hand scope, I have got a supposedly high-end hawke scope on my ruger 10/22 which is fine for shooting 20m targets and that is what they are designed for.
 
Thank you for your email.

The MAP Pro range of scopes are all spring gun rated and can therefore withstand high recoil. Using the scope on a .243 Winchester will not be a problem. If in any doubt, you may want to consider using a set of Dampa mounts as these are designed to eliminate any damage or creep caused by high recoil.

Deben (HawkeUK) are confident that their scopes will be okay on CF rifles. The text above was the reply I got when I emailed them with the very same question. Ten year guarantee on their scopes too, so if you ask them first, and keep a copy of their reply, if anything goes wrong, you should be covered.
 
Thank you all for your replies. To reply to your points in order:

The only advise I would give is check out the S/H market for any of them in as new condition Adam.

To Paul and the others who have said this, aye, I will do so. I get the impression from a chat I had with him the other day that the local RFD is prepared to do some searching on my behalf as well and is basically content, as long as he makes a little profit, to help me get set up at a reasonable price. I owe him several favours on account of the ways he's helped me in the past so there's a bit of quid pro quo there, but yeah - if I or he can find a good condition second-hand item, no complaints.

Consider 30-06 over .308. Wider range of bullet weights for the future.
Stan - thanks for the suggestion.

I have considered .30-06 and I can see its advantages in ballistic terms, but I'd ruled it out because of the 150gr-180gr bullets coming out at close to 3000fps and would - by the slow/heavy vs light/fast argument - increase the potential for carcass damage. Anything heavier is probably getting into "large deer only" territory in my (very limited) experience. Perhaps I'm wrong about that.

With a Remington with a 1-in-10" twist, I should be able to run anything up to 210gr reasonably happily, which isn't too bad, though they'll be pretty slow (relatively) that heavy. Since money is going to be limited for most of 2014, I'm afraid ammo costs are also an issue I have to consider, since £20 (for a box of .308) is likely to become a much more significant amount than it is now when my wife stops working. In the past, by reading price lists, I've found .30-06 to be much more expensive to feed than .308. Perhaps that's not true everywhere, but a few range days with .308 at £20/box and .30-06 at £40/box and the extra soon adds up to the cost of another stalking trip.

Perhaps down the line, if I end up doing a lot more stalking than I expect, I might swap the .308 for - say - a 6.5x55mm and a .30-06. Something a bit less energetic and something a bit more, but for now, .308 seems a good compromise calibre.

The only one that sets alarm bells ringing for me is the Hawke scope. That is not really a suitable scope for a 308.
Look for a used fixed mag such as a Meopta, Hungarian Schmidt, Docter, Optimate, Leupold, Burris, etc..
Avoid the Hawke!

To those of you who have said the Hawke isn't a good idea: noted - I will examine the 2nd hand market first and see what might be available when I've got FAC in hand and credit card in pocket. If I can find something second hand of better quality, I'll buy it - I have also heard that Hawke scopes aren't great on centrefires and I've no qualms about replacing that scope with a better make second hand if possible.

That said, I've got a booking for Nov 18th and most of this will get bought in the last week of October if everything goes according to the rough timescale I've got planned, so if it comes to it, I'll buy the Hawke scope and replace it later - I can't do without something even if it's not the best thing I could manage. Further, as I said in my original post, most of my stalking will be done during the day in woodland, so gaining an extra 10 mins at dusk is something I'm prepared to do without, unlike the many hundreds of pounds it would cost to achieve. Hopefully, in time, with promotion, inheritance or further house price inflation, I'll be in a place to buy something better, but I am on a budget today.

I know that this was not the sort of advice you were after but out of your kit its the most important along with some binos.

Happy to take the advice if it means replacing one thing with another of equal cost. What I was trying to avoid was someone coming along and saying "buy this £2500 scope" without realising budget was limited etc. and then having to defend my position. Regarding the binos, I'm currently borrowing a pair of Tasco binos from my dad, but will replace them when money allows. I don't know if they're a good make or not, but put it this way - I've never not spotted a deer I was capable of shooting using them (;))

I think that covers all the points raised so far - thank you again for the replies - much appreciated.

Adam.
 
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Emit the Hawke scope and the rest is spot on. A secondhand Swarovski or S&B far better option

​al
 
Hawke Panorama EV 3-9x50mm "etched" scope. (I will take advice on the kind of reticle to get - I've played with the Hawke "sighting" program but it hasn't helped point me towards one or another, but I'd like to pick one of the ones that has some kind of gradations for longer range shooting - just in case - since a low velocity .308 bullet drops reasonably fast).

nothing Hawke should be on a wish list

get a decent 2nd hand german optic fixed mag
 
Notwithstanding all the negative comments about your choice of scope, I have said Hawke scope adorning my .22, an HK5158 if I remember rightly, IR etc. It's only been on the rifle long enough to zero it and already I realize it's overkill for what I need. The scope is effectively brand new.
If you decide this scope could work for you, PM me, I'll not be asking very much for it.
 
dont know how much the hawke scope is but i would go for a 2nd hand 6x42 you can get s+b swaro etc for about £250. I have used cheap scopes in the past and they can be ok but i would always chose a basic format high end scope over a cheaper higher spec scope. for woodland stalking the 6x42 is a good choice regardless of budget anyway. I have a hawke sport hd 3-9 x 40 ir in my cupboard that came off a 22 rimfire i bought, i replaced it with a second hand swaro 6x42 for the increased clarity.

I know that this was not the sort of advice you were after but out of your kit its the most important along with some binos.

good luck with whatever you choose

Pete's advice is spot on.

As he and others have said, optics are the single most important piece of kit for stalking, so definitely not an area for compromise. My first rifle was a .308 for roe, muntjac and - once a year - red stags. The rifle has now gone, but I had (and still have) a s/h Zeiss 6x42 on top of it that, for woodland stalking and the annual trip to Sutherland, was perfectly fine. I paid £250 for it and that was almost 20 years ago but they still sell for about the same today, and a very worthwhile investment too!

​Given your November deadline, if you'd like to borrow my Zeiss while you wait for the right scope to turn up, you'd be very welcome. I don't have any spare mounts, but the scope has a 1" tube.

So far as bullets, consider the 150gr.

Everything else on your list sounds good.

From your introduction and the desire to keep your hearing, I take it when you say "musician" you are talking classical, not metal head?:D

willie_gunn

PS, as Monkey Spanker says, the Butler Creek slings are pretty good.
 
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My money would go on a 6.5 x 55, 30.06 or 308 cal. Tikka or Sako both excellent Accurate makes and calibres, check out the secondhand market.

Scopes - Hawke really are ok for rimmies, if you want to keep it, go for a reasonable quality scope as funds allow, it really pays off, you don't want to have to buy another in a short amount of time, if your stalking is woodland 6x42 is perfect.

You don't need a bipod, put that money towards the rifle or on a scope

Look around for secondhand, binos, carrying strap and a knife, sleeve etc

My thoughts would be to get the best rifle and scope you can afford the rest will follow

MD
 
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