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Thread: Bang Flop research - volunteers needed

  1. #1

    Bang Flop research - volunteers needed

    Over the past few weeks there have been a few well viewed and replied to posts on chest shots and why some deer run and others Bang Flop (BF). Three are linked below for anyone who hasn't been following them.

    Heart and Lung shots.

    Hydrostatic Shock

    Is it inevitable that a lung shot deer will run?

    It's a subject I am very interested in. Over the past few years I have been keeping pretty good records of all the deer I have shot. Taking out all the neck shots and anything that was a bit close to the spine, just focusing on the clean heart/lung shots, analysis of the data suggests that to give yourself the best chance of a BF you need a heavily constructed bullet travelling at about 3000 fps or more on impact. It can be achieved with a fragmenting bullet but the occurrence goes down to about 25%. The chance of achieving a BF with a Terminal Velocity of 2700 fps or less goes down below 10%.

    Problem is, as a few have pointed out, my data pool is just under 100 deer and only spans 4 calibres. Not statistically relevant enough to draw any real conclusions from. What I would like to do is increase that data pool to a statistically relevant 1000. I could spend the next 20 years trying to get there, but it would be much easier to pool the experience of some of the members of this forum and hopefully get it done in under 12 months.

    So I'm looking for volunteers. Doesn't matter what calibre you shoot, we want as wide a spread as we can get. If a 222 is your thing then that's just as good as a 338LM for this research. Ideally you would be willing to run 2 bullets. The first a light for calibre one that can be revved up to achieve 3200 fps at the muzzle, the second a heavy for calibre bullet that has an MV of around 2800 fps or less. Both will have similar energy levels, the heavier possibly a little more. What we will be looking for is a difference in the chances of a BF when you change bullets. Changing from a frangible bullet to a bonded or Barnes would be just as helpful. If you don't want to change bullets that's fine as well. Your data is just as valuable to the research.

    The only shots to be recorded are clean heart/lung shots. No neck, heads, guts and nothing that is so close to the spine that the BF could have been caused by shrapnel to the spinal cord.

    Questions I am trying to answer through the research:

    1. Does calibre make any difference to the BF rate?
    2. Does bullet weight make any difference to the BF rate?
    3. Does energy make any difference to the BF rate?
    4. Does bullet construction make any difference?
    5. Is there a relationship between bullet speed and the BF rate?

    What you will need to record:

    1. Species
    2. Sex
    3. Age
    4. Awareness - was it aware you were there?
    5. Shot placement - Shoulder, Heart or Lung?
    6. Distance run or BF
    7. Calibre
    8. Bullet - Frangible, Bonded or Barnes?
    9. Bullet - weight
    10. Bullet Terminal Velocity (not MV, it's irrelevant)

    If you want to join the research I will email you a spreadsheet to fill in to make things easier for you and for me when I collate it all.

    Why bother? Well there is a huge amount of debate over the subject. Lots of people have theories but to my knowledge no real research exists that can prove anything one way or another. This forum has the power to put that right. Between us we shoot enough deer to make some real progress on subjects like this.

    If anyone has any ideas for more data that needs collating to prove the point, please feel free to suggest, it's better to add to the questions before we start than to find out we missed something crucial later.

    If you want to join in please reply to this thread and I will send you a PM.

    For those of you who think it's all a waste of time please don't bother replying to this thread, we don't really need your advise, this will get proven one way or another when we get to 1000 records.

    Ambitious I know, but if you don't try you will never learn anything.

    Thanks for your help.
    Last edited by NigelM; 04-03-2015 at 22:19.
    So much to learn and so little time left

  2. #2
    Not to rain on your parade, but Taylor & many others have done this before (Bloke who worked for Lyman did an indices also if my memory is correct).

    Do a search for Taylor's "Knock Out" formula & see if it satisfies you. IMO its much better than trying to use just velocity & energy from it's square.

    Sharkey
    "Men Who Stare at Deer."

  3. #3
    I wonder whether it is a little presumptuous to suggest that a deer falling in a heap directly it's hit is killed 'more humanely' than one which saunters off before falling over?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    Not to rain on your parade, but Taylor & many others have done this before (Bloke who worked for Lyman did an indices also if my memory is correct).

    Do a search for Taylor's "Knock Out" formula & see if it satisfies you. IMO its much better than trying to use just velocity & energy from it's square.

    Sharkey
    Not at all, very interesting.

    However, for what we are looking for it's not relevant. He took a mathematical formula considering energy and sectional density and came up with a factor. It's function was to define the stopping power of a bullet on African dangerous game. It was not about whether or not velocity above 3000 fps gives you a better chance of a BF when you shoot deer in the chest.

    And I'm looking for real life evidence based experience.
    So much to learn and so little time left

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalua View Post
    I wonder whether it is a little presumptuous to suggest that a deer falling in a heap directly it's hit is killed 'more humanely' than one which saunters off before falling over?

    Are you suggesting your first example is still inhumane, but just better than the second. If so you have validated that both are inhumane.

    Got to be careful what doors you open & where you discuss things like this. I cringe every time I read hunters stating that they are "less cruel" than some other method. What they are really doing is validating that they are cruel, but just to a lesser degree.

    Sharkey
    "Men Who Stare at Deer."

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    Are you suggesting your first example is still inhumane, but just better than the second. If so you have validated that both are inhumane.

    Got to be careful what doors you open & where you discuss things like this. I cringe every time I read hunters stating that they are "less cruel" than some other method. What they are really doing is validating that they are cruel, but just to a lesser degree.

    Sharkey
    I wasn't suggesting anything.
    I am just asking Nigel whether he thinks it reasonable to imply that beasts that drop to the shot are more humanely killed that those that don't - as seem to be implied here:
    Quote Originally Posted by nigelm View Post
    why bother? Well there is a huge amount of debate over the subject. Lots of people have theories but to my knowledge no real research exists that can prove anything one way or another. This forum has the power to put that right. Between us we shoot enough deer to make some real progress on subjects like this which in turn can help us all do our job more humanely.
    My personal opinion is that heart/lung shots are humane.
    Last edited by Dalua; 04-03-2015 at 21:59.

  7. #7
    Are you going to contribute to this research or do you just want to snipe at it?
    So much to learn and so little time left

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by NigelM View Post
    Are you going to contribute to this research or do you just want to snipe at it?
    I've not even mentioned your call for data, or its purpose. I'm just not clear on how the 'more humanely' bit comes in: like Sharkey, I'm not sure that is a constructive tag to fix to this survey.

    I don't keep specific records of this sort of thing. My impression is that deer I've shot in the chest almost always don't fall over at once, except when part of the bullet hits the spine, or I knock out the shoulder/s - and that this is true regardless of calibre, bullet-weight or range.

    I await the collation of data with interest.


    Myself when young did eagerly frequent
    Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument
    About it and about: but evermore
    Came out by the same door where in I went.


    Omar Khayyam, trans. E Fitzgerald
    Last edited by Dalua; 04-03-2015 at 22:16.

  9. #9
    I would hope that no hunter out there is currently using frangible bullets for boiler room shots on deer!!!!!!!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalua View Post
    I've not even mentioned your call for data, or its purpose. I'm just not clear on how the 'more humanely' bit comes in: like Sharkey, I'm not sure that is a constructive tag to fix to this survey.

    I don't keep specific records of this sort of thing. My impression is that deer I've shot in the chest almost always don't fall over at once, except when part of the bullet hits the spine, or I knock out the shoulder/s - and that this is true regardless of calibre, bullet-weight or range.

    I await the collation of data with interest.


    Myself when young did eagerly frequent
    Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument
    About it and about: but evermore
    Came out by the same door where in I went.


    Omar Khayyam, trans. E Fitzgerald
    OK, post edited. Would you like to contribute to the research now?
    So much to learn and so little time left

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