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Thread: Chinese Water Deer - A conservation issue

  1. #1
    SD Regular teyhan1's Avatar
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    Chinese Water Deer - A conservation issue

    Chinese Water Deer have always fascinated me and particularly from a conservation point of view.
    In many of the members lifetimes some species have become extinct, even more have declined in their country of origin to the point that they are 'threatened'.
    CWD is a threatened species.
    Some sources say that Britain may now have more CWD than China. In China it is listed as a 'threatened' species but in Korea it seems to be holding in there.
    Current population estimates in Britain are around 9000 deer. That's really not a lot.
    I understand that deer numbers need to be controlled. But; given that Britain is an important stakeholder in the conservation of this species, my question is,

    Should we ban trophy hunting of CWD and have monitored control to maintain current levels?

    http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/10329/0
    “Man surprised me most about humanity. Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money.Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”........Dalai Lama

  2. #2
    Interesting. I'm not a CWD expert by any stretch but one observation that I would make is that estimates of their range (and hence presumably population) that I have seen are markedly less than the reality.

    Doesn't mean that the UK shouldn't play a part in conserving them if they are vulnerable in their original habitat but does mean we don't have an accuract baseline to work from.

  3. #3
    SD Regular willie_gunn's Avatar
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    According to the BDS the UK now has an estimated 10% of the global population of Chinese Water Deer.

    This growth has occured in a remarkably short space of time, no doubt linked to the fact that, unlike other deer, CWD frequently produce multiple offspring per year. The population, both in terms of numbers and geographical spread, would appear to be continuing to expand. In this context I wouldn't think a halt in hunting is called for. I certainly don't hear anyone advocating that they should be shot on sight, like muntjac.

    Of course many would express the opinion that CWD are a non-native species and, as such, should absolutely be shot on sight!

    I do remember a conversation with both Dominic Griffith and Richard Prior about the fact that CWD trophy measurement is somewhat counter-intuitive, in that the better teeth are generally found on less mature animals, in contrast to antler development in other species.
    Last edited by willie_gunn; 06-04-2015 at 09:51.
    O wad some Power the giftie gie us to see oursels as ithers see us!

  4. #4
    No! as in most things the answer is conservation through wise use, you still need to have a cull plan to maintain a healthy population, if an animal falls into the cull plan age wise, and only if it falls into the plan, then there is no reason why it should not be culled,cull your animals % wise right across the age spectrum, that holds true of any species, whether they are trophy animals or not, cull the correct % across sexes and ages maintaining a healthy
    population linked to what the ground can reasonably hold( many stalkers have an unrealistic approach to how many deer a given area of ground can sustain) get that right and the trophies will take care of themselves.

  5. #5
    SD Regular teyhan1's Avatar
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    I do not think that they should not be controlled. After all they can damage agriculture like all other species.
    However given our current stance on deer control, where there is no control on numbers shot or quality of animal shot, combined with the CWD's ability to have catastrophic losses, what I am saying is 'should we ban trophy hunting'.
    If clients can not shoot them, (and lets face it most clients want "zee big one") then it will be left to individuals to manage a population. I'm guessing that most people want to maintain a population, so will not, can not or won't shoot out a population.
    With the way that some people are trying to make a quick ££ out of deer and with no legislation to stop them shooting every one there it wouldn't take much to tip the balance.

    Boggy I would love to think conservation through wise use existed, but I have heard too many times people (on this site) saying that if you have anything less than 1000 acres then management is impossible so "go fill your boots".
    “Man surprised me most about humanity. Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money.Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”........Dalai Lama

  6. #6
    Inform Nigel at UKIP and he'll box some up and send them back!
    Like most endangered species though, you can only reintroduce them if the suitable habitat still exists. Some species have undoubtedly been over-hunted, but many have just lost their homes.
    I'm afraid it is people that are now breeding out of control with no natural predators! Thomas Malthus had some great ideas on this a long time ago - here's an extract:

    Malthus argued that two types of checks hold population within resource limits: positive checks, which raise the death rate; and preventive ones, which lower the birth rate. The positive checks include hunger, disease and war; the preventive checks, abortion, birth control, prostitution, postponement of marriage and celibacy. In later editions of his essay, Malthus clarified his view that if society relied on human misery to limit population growth, then sources of misery (e.g., hunger, disease, and war) would inevitably afflict society, as would volatile economic cycles. On the other hand, "preventive checks" to population that limited birthrates, such as later marriages, could ensure a higher standard of living for all, while also increasing economic stability.

    Interesting that modern economic restrictions on couples appear to be having the preventative effect of creating later marriage and birth amongst working couples. Conversely, younger couples on benefits are almost encouraged to breed earlier and more and without product, which would appear to support the arrival of positive checks such as hunger, disease and war! Interesting stuff some of these old predictions?
    Nothing to do with CWD though really - sorry!
    MS

  7. #7
    SD Regular teyhan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey Spanker View Post
    Inform Nigel at UKIP and he'll box some up and send them back!
    Like most endangered species though, you can only reintroduce them if the suitable habitat still exists. Some species have undoubtedly been over-hunted, but many have just lost their homes.
    I'm afraid it is people that are now breeding out of control with no natural predators! Thomas Malthus had some great ideas on this a long time ago - here's an extract:

    Malthus argued that two types of checks hold population within resource limits: positive checks, which raise the death rate; and preventive ones, which lower the birth rate. The positive checks include hunger, disease and war; the preventive checks, abortion, birth control, prostitution, postponement of marriage and celibacy. In later editions of his essay, Malthus clarified his view that if society relied on human misery to limit population growth, then sources of misery (e.g., hunger, disease, and war) would inevitably afflict society, as would volatile economic cycles. On the other hand, "preventive checks" to population that limited birthrates, such as later marriages, could ensure a higher standard of living for all, while also increasing economic stability.

    Interesting that modern economic restrictions on couples appear to be having the preventative effect of creating later marriage and birth amongst working couples. Conversely, younger couples on benefits are almost encouraged to breed earlier and more and without product, which would appear to support the arrival of positive checks such as hunger, disease and war! Interesting stuff some of these old predictions?
    Nothing to do with CWD though really - sorry!
    MS
    No apology needed, I would agree.
    I blame religion and the notion of the sanctity of human life over and above all others. Our "god given right" to use the earth as we see fit. We have almost detached ourselves from it, it merely being another one of our servants rather than being an integral part of it.
    “Man surprised me most about humanity. Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money.Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”........Dalai Lama

  8. #8
    SD Regular willie_gunn's Avatar
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    Many a true word.....

    The power of population is infinitely greater than the power in the earth to produce subsistence for man
    O wad some Power the giftie gie us to see oursels as ithers see us!

  9. #9
    It has to be said that a great many CWD displayed on here and other online outlets seem to have been shot by clents of pro stalkers.

    I am surmising that a great deal of the core CWD country around the wider Woburn area is in the hands of folk who then sell the shooting of the deer. I do not think the same is true of their other stronghold, the broads (?). No doubt most will not be tempted to kill the golden egg but there will be a minority who will shoot then out for the cash then move on.

    There is a great potential for CWD to colonise new territory in the UK, lots of suitable habitat, after all they seem to do just as well on average arable farm land as they do marsh land. And the UK has a lot of average arable farm land.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey Spanker View Post
    Inform Nigel at UKIP and he'll box some up and send them back!
    Like most endangered species though, you can only reintroduce them if the suitable habitat still exists. Some species have undoubtedly been over-hunted, but many have just lost their homes.
    I'm afraid it is people that are now breeding out of control with no natural predators! Thomas Malthus had some great ideas on this a long time ago - here's an extract:

    Malthus argued that two types of checks hold population within resource limits: positive checks, which raise the death rate; and preventive ones, which lower the birth rate. The positive checks include hunger, disease and war; the preventive checks, abortion, birth control, prostitution, postponement of marriage and celibacy. In later editions of his essay, Malthus clarified his view that if society relied on human misery to limit population growth, then sources of misery (e.g., hunger, disease, and war) would inevitably afflict society, as would volatile economic cycles. On the other hand, "preventive checks" to population that limited birthrates, such as later marriages, could ensure a higher standard of living for all, while also increasing economic stability.

    Interesting that modern economic restrictions on couples appear to be having the preventative effect of creating later marriage and birth amongst working couples. Conversely, younger couples on benefits are almost encouraged to breed earlier and more and without product, which would appear to support the arrival of positive checks such as hunger, disease and war! Interesting stuff some of these old predictions?
    Nothing to do with CWD though really - sorry!
    MS
    Dan Brown had an interesting slant on population control in his last book.

    Still nothing to do with CWD though.
    So much to learn and so little time left

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