Roebuck management

stuartp

Well-Known Member
Quick question for the more experienced roe stalkers please.

I have been out spying around a fair bit recently and there are consistently two groups or roe, mixed sex on average 6 or 7 of them, sometimes more.
They lay in up in very convenient locations stalking wise, not too difficult to get into and very safe locations.
The common factor between the groups is there is a much larger buck in each group holding court.
When I have spooked them it this buck who gets up first and gives the signal for the rest to go.

The question is, do I preserve these larger bucks as they hold these groups, or is it OK to take them?
Or would I be better off taking the occasional smaller buck while the group remains intact?
My concern is if the larger buck is taken the group dynamic may change and they may disperse, most likely into the adjoining estate.
 
I would hazard a guess that they may well disperse naturally any day now whatever you do. Given your concern, I assume that the neighbours shoot deer too in which case you will probably get as much immigration as emigration, possibly more if your activities are less, so its swings and roundabouts.

Only you can decide whether or not to shoot a mature buck depending on many variables such as your objectives, those of the landowner, the policy on neighbouring estates etc.

Despite the fact that there are more deer experts than deer in this country now, the fact is that there is no right or wrong answer.

If you fancy shooting a nice buck then go ahead. If you decide to leave them on the ground until after the rut then good on you but don't be disappointed if you never see them again.

If you are only planning to shoot one buck this year then make it special, take a friend or child if appropriate, do it as a DSC2 stalk, if you've already shot plenty then let someone else take the shot etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that, in my opinion, too many recreational stalkers get bogged down in pseudo 'management' and forget to enjoy the experience!
 
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I totally agree with everything glynn1 says .I personaly would take a couple of youngsters or poorer quality animals first which are going to be pushed out of the area anyway then you decide if you want to stalk and shoot a good buck which you would remember
 
These groups will start to break up any day now,Doe's and Bucks have different territories though they will overlap.

An older Buck will do less fraying than a young Buck so that may be a consideration if you are concerned about damage, shooting an older Buck may cause an influx of young Bucks and an increase in damage as they compete with each other to establish territories.
 
News from the front is although still there the group has started to open up a little already.
So I took what I could, dropped a small roebuck and the bonus muntjac that was stood next to him
And yes I enjoyed the experience.

I was going to go for 397.5 yrd neck, shot but used a bit of field-craft to get in to about 70 yards instead ;)
 
Hard call. Shooting a dominant buck can cause several smaller bucks to occupy the same territory and compete for it-this can lead to excess fraying. I was in a similar position a couple of mornings ago, largish family group consisting of a few does a small buck and a bigger one. The wee buck got the bad news, and that would be the preference for me at this time of year.

the groups will disperse soon anyway, the big bucks will see of the young bucks so they will likely find a corner somewhere off his territory, maybe off your ground, so hence they are not bad ones to take on that account-equally you may 'inherit' a few. It's always a fascinating time of year as the group dynamics change day by day and you see all sorts of beasts coming out of the woodwork.
 
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It is, I can't lie I have enjoyed watching them just as much as stalking into them.
The owners of the adjoining land should be concerned about tree damage, although they don't seem to be, but the main concern on my land is keeping the numbers down to a sensible level so as not to disrupt game shooting during the season.
The balance I am looking to maintain is continued sport for me, but keeping below nuisance levels for the shoot.
 
too many stalkers get bogged down in pseudo 'management' and forget that they are not the only ones "managing" those deer!

Whatever plan you may have for your deer unless you are controlling a captive population on a fixed area someone else is incorporating that same buck in their "plan"!!
Too many big bucks that are left by some will be shot by others.

The greedy would say shoot them before someone else does
The true managers would always try to preserve the best examples within any population

the beauty of it is it is all up to you!
 
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sometimes a master buck or stag is the right beast to take depending on his state of health and age and how many times he's likely to have covered the does/hinds, etc. Often a young promising buck or stag will take his place and the good food resource and grow to be equally large in statue and head size, etc. most likely sharing genes anyway.

whether to take the large buck is dependant on whether it's his time to go or not, if he's still in his prime, leave him..that is, unless you feel you want something nice for the wall of course; and in all honesty, one of the upcoming offspring with good potential will probably replace him on his territory anyway, so it's really debatable as a subject, and there are no hard facts..it's always wishy washy and very opinionated about what to shoot and why... some argue you could just shoot the big bucks and the smaller upcoming bucks will become equal in stature as they will then start occupying the ex-dominant bucks food resources and grow to equivalent size..there's an argument in that too..

tricky really! go with your heart ;)
 
I am quoted in post number 10 but it is not what I wrote. I don’t know how this has happened but it is not correct. Please can someone delete it.
 
sometimes a master buck or stag is the right beast to take depending on his state of health and age and how many times he's likely to have covered the does/hinds, etc. Often a young promising buck or stag will take his place and the good food resource and grow to be equally large in statue and head size, etc. most likely sharing genes anyway.

whether to take the large buck is dependant on whether it's his time to go or not, if he's still in his prime, leave him..that is, unless you feel you want something nice for the wall of course; and in all honesty, one of the upcoming offspring with good potential will probably replace him on his territory anyway, so it's really debatable as a subject, and there are no hard facts..it's always wishy washy and very opinionated about what to shoot and why... some argue you could just shoot the big bucks and the smaller upcoming bucks will become equal in stature as they will then start occupying the ex-dominant bucks food resources and grow to equivalent size..there's an argument in that too..

tricky really! go with your heart ;)

I had exactly that choice on Tuesday evening. Doe, yearling buck and mature buck. My plan was to shoot the yearling but when I had a really good look at the mature buck (he was only 80 yards away) I decided he was very old and going back. As a result he got it.

On inspection I was spot on. Never seen teeth as badly ground down on a Roe.

If he had been a stunning 6 pointer in his prime he would have been left alone and plan A would have been implemented.
 
The size of a trophy should have very little part to play in Roe management, work out how many animals your ground can hold There are formulas to help you do this , depending on how good your ground is this can be as little as 1 Roe per 25 acres on poor ground, alternativley very good ground can sustain a population of just over 1 Roe per 5 acres , unfortunatley many stalkers have an unrealistic idea of how many animals their ground can sustain, also other species of deer on the ground will reduce the number you can hold due to competition for food especially in winter.


You then need some idea of how many there on the land, counting Roe has never had a great deal of success and usually

Under estimates numbers, however you need to start somewhere and the best time to count is in March
while it may not give you an absolute figure most of your Roe population can be seen browsing in the open at that time as there is little food to be found in the woods.

While not 100% accurate you will get some idea of numbers, and more especially you will get a good idea of how many youngsters have survived the winter, while one count may not tell you very much if you are able to do it for two or three years a trend should emerge, are the numbers you are counting going up or down, are they in line with what the ground can sustain, if you have reached you holding capacity, and numbers are still rising you need to increase your cull ( to reduce a population you need to cull more females) if the numbers you are counting are dropping year on year you need to ease back on your cull, it's all simple stuff really.

If the population is about right for the available ground you need to cull 30 % of the population annually
slightly more Does than Bucks ,though both sexes are born in more or less equal numbers Buck kids have a higher natural mortality.

Does cull 60% young
Bucks cull 60% yearling 20% middle aged and 20% old

Thats the basics of Roe deer management, if you have a small area with only two or three Bucks to cull then you can allow yourself the luxury of leaving a a promising Buck.

Most with even a moderate amount to cull cannot afford themselves that luxury if they are making a serious attempt at managing a Roe population, however it's questionable if you should even attempt to do so for several reasons, not least that contrary to popular believe a Bucks antlers change from year to year a good six pointer this year may be a four next year and vise versa while the basic shape usually stays the same not so the size nor number of points

Far better to cull the right number of Bucks across the age groups and keep the population right for the ground available and trophy quality will take care of its self.

Serious Roe management should be done age not by trophy size or potential.
 
The size of a trophy should have very little part to play in Roe management, work out how many animals your ground can hold There are formulas to help you do this , depending on how good your ground is this can be as little as 1 Roe per 25 acres on poor ground, alternativley very good ground can sustain a population of just over 1 Roe per 5 acres , unfortunatley many stalkers have an unrealistic idea of how many animals their ground can sustain, also other species of deer on the ground will reduce the number you can hold due to competition for food especially in winter.


You then need some idea of how many there on the land, counting Roe has never had a great deal of success and usually

Under estimates numbers, however you need to start somewhere and the best time to count is in March
while it may not give you an absolute figure most of your Roe population can be seen browsing in the open at that time as there is little food to be found in the woods.

While not 100% accurate you will get some idea of numbers, and more especially you will get a good idea of how many youngsters have survived the winter, while one count may not tell you very much if you are able to do it for two or three years a trend should emerge, are the numbers you are counting going up or down, are they in line with what the ground can sustain, if you have reached you holding capacity, and numbers are still rising you need to increase your cull ( to reduce a population you need to cull more females) if the numbers you are counting are dropping year on year you need to ease back on your cull, it's all simple stuff really.

If the population is about right for the available ground you need to cull 30 % of the population annually
slightly more Does than Bucks ,though both sexes are born in more or less equal numbers Buck kids have a higher natural mortality.

Does cull 60% young
Bucks cull 60% yearling 20% middle aged and 20% old

Thats the basics of Roe deer management, if you have a small area with only two or three Bucks to cull then you can allow yourself the luxury of leaving a a promising Buck.

Most with even a moderate amount to cull cannot afford themselves that luxury if they are making a serious attempt at managing a Roe population, however it's questionable if you should even attempt to do so for several reasons, not least that contrary to popular believe a Bucks antlers change from year to year a good six pointer this year may be a four next year and vise versa while the basic shape usually stays the same not so the size nor number of points

Far better to cull the right number of Bucks across the age groups and keep the population right for the ground available and trophy quality will take care of its self.

Serious Roe management should be done age not by trophy size or potential.


Mr Prior would agree with that!
 
Despite the fact that there are more deer experts than deer in this country now, the fact is that there is no right or wrong answer.

If you fancy shooting a nice buck then go ahead. If you decide to leave them on the ground until after the rut then good on you but don't be disappointed if you never see them again.

If you are only planning to shoot one buck this year then make it special, take a friend or child if appropriate, do it as a DSC2 stalk, if you've already shot plenty then let someone else take the shot etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that, in my opinion, too many recreational stalkers get bogged down in pseudo 'management' and forget to enjoy the experience!

A wholehearted +1

Unless you are in the incredibly fortunate position of having a large, contiguous and enclosed area to manage, don't over analyse what should be a very straightforward strategy.

Bearing in mind the landowners preference, decide on how many bucks (and does) you want to shoot on the ground and then stick to it. No need for constructing a Hoffmann Pyramid - just work on numbers, pure and simple.

And, as Glyn says, make the experience special.
 
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