Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 17

Thread: Siberian Roe hybrids

  1. #1

    Siberian Roe hybrids

    Prompted by the feeding to improve antler quality and the assertion genetics is a dominant factor in trophy quality I wondered if, in the UK, Siberian Roe had ever been introduced to hybridise for bigger antlers. I am assuming SR are a true sub species with this bigger antler distinguishing feature as against merely eating better (eg Scottish Reds taken to NZ and creating monsters with the same basic genetics as our hill reds)

    I saw a number of SR heads in a hunting lodge in Macedonia and they were of very impressive proportions

    Clearly a whole raft of ethical and environmental issues associated re polluting a natural species, but intrigued nonetheless

    S

  2. #2
    It appears there may be problems.

    "A series of hybridisation experiments have illustrated that, although successful crosses can be achieved, they more often result in stillbirths or birth complications Leading to the death of both mother and kid, and reduced or complete infertility among F1 hybrid bucks."

    http://serials.unibo.it/cgi-ser/star...&view=articoli

  3. #3
    Yes I saw that but some other studies particularly around Moscow area apparently show an 11% hybridisation rate in dna samples of the populations there

    S

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by sh1kar View Post
    (eg Scottish Reds taken to NZ and creating monsters with the same basic genetics as our hill reds)


    S
    The Kiwi red deer you speak of, are the product of several sub species (& very selective breeding), not just basic C e scoticus genetics. Warnham & Woburn blood lines do feature heavily in NZ reds, but these lines are "Park deer", & not your indigenous species. Most "recipes" for predictable heritability & "vigour" include some German & Yugo genetics for length & mass.

    Sharkey

    Edit to add.
    It would be interesting to see if these Kiwi reds could actually survive on the "hill" now. I doubt it.
    Last edited by sharkey; 15-04-2015 at 13:10.
    "Men Who Stare at Deer."

  5. #5
    Yes, Siberian roe are a different sub species of Capreolus and I have also heard of hybridisation on the fringes of their range. I have never heard of any being released in the UK though. I guess the main problem is, as happened with other strains of imported reds and Wapiti when tried here - the genes are very quickly diluted.

    I think feeding/climate (associated factors) affects size/quality more than strain (ref Oz/NZ) as proven when English park reds were released on the hill in Scotland in the 19 century and the animals 'blended in' often after a year or so.

    Nick

  6. #6
    I'm certain I've read of Siberian releases in England, maybe around Woburn? I'd have to have a flick through a few books, but from memory they were adjudged to have died out without any noticeable improvement in local stocks.

    Novice

  7. #7
    I gather that was an accidental escapee from the park at Woburn (there is none in the park now.) I'm not sure at that time (1887-1945) there was European roe in Bedfordshire for them to hybridise though.

    Quote Originally Posted by novice View Post
    I'm certain I've read of Siberian releases in England, maybe around Woburn? I'd have to have a flick through a few books, but from memory they were adjudged to have died out without any noticeable improvement in local stocks.

    Novice

  8. #8
    The ultimate authority must be G. Kenneth Whitehead and in his book The Deer of Great Britain and Ireland he mentions reports of Siberian roe in the New Forest, Nottinghamshire, Hertfordshire, and Northamptonshire (Kettering and Yardley) but dismisses all of these reports as misidentification but has this to say about Woburn:

    Buckinghamshire

    .....I am, however, familiar with the woods around Woburn (Beds) which adjoin Great Brickhill, and although there were, in 1950, three or four Siberian roe in this area, it seems probable that the species is now extinct. Moreover, whilst there are no ordinary roe anywhere in the vicinity of Woburn, muntjac are fairly numerous...."

    So it seems that there were a couple loose in the wild around Woburn but, as others have said, there were no ordinary roe in the area at that time for them to hybridise with.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by NickJ View Post
    Yes, Siberian roe are a different sub species of Capreolus and I have also heard of hybridisation on the fringes of their range. I have never heard of any being released in the UK though. I guess the main problem is, as happened with other strains of imported reds and Wapiti when tried here - the genes are very quickly diluted.

    I think feeding/climate (associated factors) affects size/quality more than strain (ref Oz/NZ) as proven when English park reds were released on the hill in Scotland in the 19 century and the animals 'blended in' often after a year or so.

    Nick
    The issue of red deer and their genetics is interesting. A lot of reds from English parks were introduced to various Scottish deer forests in the 19th/20th centuries to improve the weights and antlers, over 30 forests received Warnham blood, and in general you're correct in that the beneficial effect was in the long term at best muted if not absent, and I agree that this was probably the effect of the poor environment on the open hill. When these deer accessed the newly forested areas like Galloway, all of a sudden there are much bigger heads turning up, which must be the genetics kicking in given decent feeding.

    The wild deer in many English and Welsh areas are from park origin and as we know they often have superb antlers and big body weights in many cases. The best antlers in the UK are probably from Warnham Park stock and if you look at the history of the escaped populations in many cases, including Norfolk/Suffolk you can trace it back to Warnham.

    The New Zealand reds trace back to two basic original genetic lines, Invermark (Scottish) and English park deer (Woburn and Warnham), and in his books D. Bruce Banwell points out the differences in antler formation with the Invermark deer having classic "royal" characteristics with brow, bey and tray each side with the additional tines in a cup formation on top. Having said that, we know that many Scottish reds have English park blood in them so the Invermark deer may not have been pure Scottish reds. The monstrosities produced in some parts of NZ probably trace back to English park deer with additonal blood from East European maraloid reds and wapiti. I have been watching some clips from a NZ outfitter called Gary Herbert and the massive reds he produces for clients are aesthetically horrible.

    I think environment certainly has something to do with it but given good feeding the genetics will kick in and the antler production reflects this. A good example is East Anglia where the reds originate from very good quality English park stock and this is reflected in the current population which produces the majority of UK CIC medals whereas the roe in East Anglia have a German heritage (they were introduced in 1884) and even with the influx of better quality roe from outside East Anglia the area still produces very few medal roe. The area populated by the two species overlaps, so if it were just down to environment alone you'd expect either good or poor heads from both.

    As a final point, if genetics are not a factor why do almost all deer managers "leave a good buck/stag in" for it's useful breeding life if it isn't to capitalise on good genetics?
    Last edited by paul k; 17-04-2015 at 12:34. Reason: Change Dr to D.

  10. #10
    The Kiwi reds of today are very different to the Kiwi reds when Bruce was a lad. Back then it was all about Scottish & English park deer, but since the 80's several more sub species have been added & it's not only the change in antlers which is notable .

    Deer managers do recognise the importance of genetics ( & heritability), but also recognise its only one third of the equation when producing trophies.

    Sharkey

    Edit to add
    Would Bruce have appreciated being called a "Dr"?
    Last edited by sharkey; 17-04-2015 at 11:07.
    "Men Who Stare at Deer."

Similar Threads

  1. Roe/Sheep Hybrids?
    By Tartan_Terrier in forum Deer Stalking General
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 07-11-2012, 19:32
  2. Siberian Roe
    By moose in forum Deer Stalking General
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 31-03-2011, 20:41
  3. Siberian Roe
    By JC275 in forum Deer Stalking General
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 19-01-2010, 09:16
  4. Siberian Roebucks
    By Beowulf in forum Deer Stalking General
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 25-05-2008, 11:29
  5. Hybrids
    By Grantoliver in forum Deer Stalking General
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 31-03-2008, 21:39

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •