.204 for Roe in Scotland?

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.308STEYR

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Hi,

I am about to purchase a .204 Ruger for fox as i have heard great things about the accuracy and effectiveness if the calibre. It came up in conversation that Scotland does not specify a min calibre for Roe and as such the .204 with a 50gr would be perfectly legal and humane.

'For roe deer, where the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds may be used.'

I don't think there is a factory 50gr yet but home loading is possible. I do all my Roe stalking in Scotland and was interested if anyone uses the .204 on Roe and if it is effective, I obviously do not want to run the risk of injuring.

Any opinions on the .204 for Scottish Roe?
 
It is a thought I have had for some time since I first read about .20 calibres. I think there are a couple of hurdles to overcome:

1 Sourcing an appropriate expanding bullet of 50 or more grains.
2 Ensuring that the twist of the .204 is fast enough to stabilise these heavier bullets.

I am sure you have looked at the following page: http://www.6mmbr.com/20Caliber.html

The rifle that caught my eye was the 20 Practical and I am sure someone could build a 20 Practical that would be legal for roe in Scotland.
 
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Hi,

Indeed, I found that site and was curious if the 50gr Berger was suitable for the .204, but again the stability in a 1 in 12 is a concern.
As most of the Roe i shoot are under 100yds I wasn't sure if the accuracy was likely to be too affected over those distances.

cheers
 
Hi,

Indeed, I found that site and was curious if the 50gr Berger was suitable for the .204, but again the stability in a 1 in 12 is a concern.
As most of the Roe i shoot are under 100yds I wasn't sure if the accuracy was likely to be too affected over those distances.

cheers

Isn't the minimum calibre 22? Or is bullet diameter not mentioned in the Scotish act?
 
Hi,

The Scottish act does not appear to specify a min calibre, only grains and muzzle energy.

My main concern is will a 50gr .204 be humane and effective on Roe?

cheers
 
If you had to shoot them with a 20 then it would be a 20br with 50g round for me.

Saying that i would get a 223 and shoot light 40's on fox and 50/55 s on the roe.

Steve
 
Hi,

Indeed, I found that site and was curious if the 50gr Berger was suitable for the .204, but again the stability in a 1 in 12 is a concern.
As most of the Roe i shoot are under 100yds I wasn't sure if the accuracy was likely to be too affected over those distances.

cheers
a 50gr berger will not shoot in a 12 twist barrel,in my prac 20 only fired 2 rounds both went through the target sideways and 8'' apart at 100yrds
atb paul
 
a 50gr berger will not shoot in a 12 twist barrel,in my prac 20 only fired 2 rounds both went through the target sideways and 8'' apart at 100yrds
atb paul

Yeah, i heard the 50gr in a 12 twist was unpredictable, but i didnt realise that bad !

I read some US forums and there is a lot of chatter about 10 twist being optimum for the .204 if heavier projectiles are intended and apparently it doesnt need to be a custom barrel job either, Thompson Center now do a bolt action 10 twist interestingly with 5 groove rifling not 6. http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/venture.php

This is not a rifle brand i have heard much about, but US forums seem positive, anyone got experience of the Thompson Center Venture rifles?

cheers
 
You need a 1:9 twist to stabilise the 50gr Berger. My .20 Tac has that twist and shoots the 50grs into sub 1/4s. Aas for whether it is a suitable bullet for Roe... Well a 50gr Berger from a .222 would be legal so why not? No animal will know the difference (it's .019" difference and I have never met a Roe that could decipher thousandths very well).. In addition the .20 cal carries energy better than the .22s due to better ballistics.

The 50s seem to be a little to stiff for foxes so they may be reasonable on Roe. Don't know and won't try it cos my .20 Tac rig weighs over 15lbs and it's a hog to carry!

I'll carry on using my ppc or .308 for them.

Regards

Gareth
 
Don`t want to rattle anyones cage but why would you want to use such a small calibre for such a, in this case, big animal?? I think you are asking for trouble, poor bullet selection, wind drift ...

Personally I think the 6mm are as close to ideal you can come but that`s just me.

//Rolf
 
Agree with Rolf.

I would ask, why the need to go for such a fast, flat shooting round for targets that are that close? I would suggest that any bullet you find for use in the .204 will be explosive, especially at the ranges you are referring to. It is still going at 'silly fast' speeds at 100yds and I would guess penetration may be limited given the fragile bullets. Just a suggestion but have you looked at the likes of .223wsm, .22-250 or even .22-250AI? Have a look at the various bullet choices for these calibres and you will find a suitable option for Roe, even at 100yds without the risk of break up on impact. I have had the experience of shooting probably more deer in Scotland (hundreds, even into 4 figures if I include those shot by my mate on our ground as well) with a .22-250 than any other calibre I have owned and can't praise the round enough. I personally don't see the point in choosing a centrefire .22 and then shooting 70grn bullets (surely that should dictate a jump to 6mm as Rolf says, better ballistic performance in these weights) but I accept we all have our own opinions. I have no personal experience with the .204, just what friends have told me and what I have read. So I will not knock the calibre as I believe it is fantastic in the role it was developed for. I just think there are more readily sought and more versatile options out there.

Brian

Remember, genius is common sense in it's working clothes.
 
Well I don't know much about these "Hot Rods" but does not the law stipulate a .22" cal bullet and not a .20" Cal bullet diameter? If it inded does then it's all moot as it would be illegal.

If one really wants all that speed then the perhaps the 5.6x57 or 220 Swift would suit.
 
I have a .204, it is fine for foxes, it was never designed for killing deer, it has already been said that it struggles to stabalize 50 grn bullets. Do the deer a favour and use a suitable calibre, they deserve better than having lumps of flesh being blown off by someone who wonders if it will work
 
Don't know why the 50 grn 20 bullets are even considered in a standard twist 204.

They will not come near to stabilizing in a month of Sundays - totally the wrong bullets for the 12 twist.

40 grn bullets are about as heavy as you can go before needing a tighter twist. (and some of them are on the border line of being unstable)

IME of owning two Pacnor barrelled 204 - it is a great varmint and fox calibre - but never designed for deer.

There miles better cals if deer is on the menu - eg 223 sending a 63 grn soft point at 3200 fps - or something in 6 mm flavour


ATB
Alan
 
Personally,, and I have lots of experience of Scottish Roe. I think the .204 is just bordering on the too light. You will have a struggle finding the weight of bullet that you want.

Now I am a HUGE fan of going light. I shoot all my Roe with 50gr sako game heads, from a Tikka .222. so I basically shoot the lightest that you can go,, but I think the .204 is just pushing it too far,, I rate it,, it`s a superb round,, and I know plenty deer have been dropped by .220 etc etc

But I would be thinking about why I wanted to use this round. Just to go light,, ffs 50gr, !!!!! that's what I drop them with,, why would you want to go lighter ???

Just my opinion

Rake
 
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woo!
touched some nerves there!?

I see no reason why a .204 diameter 50gr bullet of suitable construction travelling at 3000+fps will be ANY LESS effective than a .224 diameter 50gr bullet travelling at 3000+fps

splitting hairs there I suspect

biggest hurdles are:
1) finding a suitably constructed 50gr bullet. (Hornady did a soft point 45gr which is as close I know, but lets face it plenty of people use ballistic tipped bullets on deer whether you agree with it or not!)
2) stabilising said bullet

On that note, just because no-one else has managed to stabilise a 50gr in a .204 1@12" twist rifle does not mean it is impossible
If I can stabilise 60gr .224 in a 1:14 barrel and maintain stability and a decent velocity I bet you there is a bullet/barrel combo out there that can do it.

Why would you want to?
can see numerous reasons.
if you have one rifle and scope you like and can shoot confidently into a 1" circle at 300yds then shooting roe at 50-150yds is going to be much much easier
 
why would anyone even consider using something that small on anything other than a squirrel or rabbit? Of course, it will probably kill anything else, but I thought the goal was to do the job with as least suffering as possible...Going by your handle, you may have a .308, why not use it and kill outright... Don't imagine you'll wanna eat the fox and you'll probably find that the .308 does less damage to the deer.
 
why would anyone even consider using something that small on anything other than a squirrel or rabbit? Of course, it will probably kill anything else, but I thought the goal was to do the job with as least suffering as possible...Going by your handle, you may have a .308, why not use it and kill outright... Don't imagine you'll wanna eat the fox and you'll probably find that the .308 does less damage to the deer.

but that is my point above.
if you have ever seen the reaction a chest shot roe gives to a .222 bullet (caveat: of suitable construction!) then its not such a huge jump down in size.

is a .250 or .264 100gr bullet more deadly than a .243 100gr bullet at the same speed?
 
You do what you want, juggling minimum calibres, minimum velocities, minimum energy and minimum bullet weights. Personally, I'd rather show my quarry some respect and take it cleanly with a calibre designed for the purpose of killing deer.

It might make me sound old fashioned, but there you go...
 
but that is my point above.
if you have ever seen the reaction a chest shot roe gives to a .222 bullet (caveat: of suitable construction!) then its not such a huge jump down in size.

is a .250 or .264 100gr bullet more deadly than a .243 100gr bullet at the same speed?

maybe/maybe not? Myself, I wouldn't even bother to find out. Grew up hunting deer with a 12 ga slug (420+/- gr?) and hate even the idea of a 160-180 gr bullet out of a .30 caliber. Got over that hate quick enough after a few pigs and Roe dropped dead in their tracks. Just don't think anything smaller is right... That's just me tho...
 
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