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Thread: Breeding Genetics?

  1. #1

    Breeding Genetics?

    We have a male Korthals Griffon who is about 14 months old now - my Good Lady would like to breed from him in a couple of years, so is considering importing a French bitch. The little girl we're looking at is still only a few weeks old, so although we can't bring her over for a while yet, we are considering going over and checking the litter ourselves.

    Before doing so, however, we've been looking at the ancestry - although there are several outstanding bloodlines involved, I'm concerned that there appears to be some potential inbreeding. Not knowing much about such things, however, I thought it a good idea to seek the wisdom of the forum!

    In essence, two of the puppy's maternal grandparents have the same grandparents; in other words, four generations back from the puppy. To make matters even more complicated, one of the paternal great-great grandfathers is one of the same animals - so, again four generations back.

    We've been so mired in understanding the differences between British and French hip-scoring methods, etc. that we haven't gone into the ancestry very far yet. My question therefore, is whether anyone can tell me if this is normal for dog pedigrees, or not?

    As ever, any help would be most appreciated!

  2. #2
    If i understand correctly, what you have described would be linebreeding. This is more common in working lines to keep the strain true to type of ancestors in question. If you are using a dog that is completely unrelated then you are breeding an outcross.
    I am a firm believer in linebreeding once it is carried out sensibly. Any outcross that i would consider using would not be completely unrelated but further back in the said line.
    I would not be worried about the bitch pups breeding. But one thing to be aware of when line breeding is that although the good points of the breed are strengthened, the bad points too are strengthened. So my focus would be on the common relatives hip scores etc. If they are sound chances of good scoring in your bitch pup will be high.

  3. #3
    Paddy.....

    You have made my day..... some one who is concerned enough to have read his dogs pedigree in order to find an appropriate bitch to breed to to retain good bloodlines.

    Not be tempted to try and create another designer gun dog. The last being a Teckel x Collie cross.


    I hope that all goes well for you and that you find a good brood bitch for your dog.

    Cheers David.

  4. #4
    Thank you, Gentlemen - your comments are most appreciated!

  5. #5
    I would be more concerned that there wasn't any common ancestors in the immediate history. All the best stock is inbred to a certain degree. How do you know your KG will be good enough to breed from if he is only 14 months old?. If he is good enough people will come to use him over their bitches. It would be a lot easier for you to choose a pup from the best bitch brought for mating than to get a bitch in yourself. In three years time you could end up with a useless dog annd a useless bitch.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by sportingspaniels View Post
    I would be more concerned that there wasn't any common ancestors in the immediate history. All the best stock is inbred to a certain degree. How do you know your KG will be good enough to breed from if he is only 14 months old?. If he is good enough people will come to use him over their bitches. It would be a lot easier for you to choose a pup from the best bitch brought for mating than to get a bitch in yourself. In three years time you could end up with a useless dog annd a useless bitch.
    Many thanks for your comments - I should have made it clear that the breeding is an incidental thing - we care more about having good dogs than whether they have puppies or not. Currently, our boy is shaping up to be an excellent night-hunting foxer - which is what I got him for. As he comes from an excellent lineage, we want the same sort of background for the little girl, which is what the one we're going to look at has.

  7. #7
    There is some good advice above from both Sporting spaniels and HH, when ur gettin to 4 gens back ur not so bad and as HH says quite common for working dogs (some cockers are far more interbred than that,some prominent and well used stud's are running about 25-30% co effcient) might be complicated with the pup being french but if it was a UK kC reg pup u could put it into the KC website and it would give u a % inbreeding co-efficent, might be worth looking on it anyway to get an idea of likely %, and wot guidlines say is acceptable.

    There is a worry/chance that the pup u choose from that litter may not be the most suited to breed from ur dog (ie ur dogs strengths/weakness's are not the oppisate in the bitch as idealy u want a pair to complement each other) and would produce better pups with a litter sister even thou pedigree/breeding is the same

    U'd be possibly better speaking to someone who knows the breed/lines better as it is quite a small gene pool in the UK and not massive in europe either. I've met a boy (cannae mind his name now) a couple of times at FT with KG that run very well and he has imported a few of his dogs, he certainly seemed to know the breed very well and i'm sure he could offer u advice specific to the breed.
    If ur dog is well bred and health tested i'm sure u could use it as a suitable sire as the more sires the better in such a small gene pool

    Really intresting history to how the breed was started in the first place, think within 30 years had them breeding pure to type.


    As an aside ur going to be having 2 fairly yong HPR's at the same time, with a good chance ur old 1 may not be fully trained yet and taking a pup on, lot of work and further down the line u will have 2 dogs peaking and getting old at a similar time (plus if breeding say at 5 u will have 3 dogs 7,5, pup), sometimes ur better if u can wait till ur older dog is 3-5 years old esp if dog numbers are limiting

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Paddy_SP View Post
    Many thanks for your comments - I should have made it clear that the breeding is an incidental thing - we care more about having good dogs than whether they have puppies or not. Currently, our boy is shaping up to be an excellent night-hunting foxer - which is what I got him for. As he comes from an excellent lineage, we want the same sort of background for the little girl, which is what the one we're going to look at has.
    - Your opening lines were

    my Good Lady would like to breed from him in a couple of years, so is considering importing a French bitch

    That sounds like breeding is very much at the front of your mind?
    Last edited by sportingspaniels; 07-06-2015 at 20:13.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by sportingspaniels View Post
    - Your opening lines were

    my Good Lady would like to breed from him in a couple of years, so is considering importing a French bitch

    That sounds like breeding is very much at the front of your mind?
    You don't know much about women, do you?...

  10. #10
    To give this a broader biological perspective, what you are describing is, by natural standards, extreme inbreeding, and is inevitably associated with negative consequences.

    Dog breeders of every type deploy endless justifications for it, and bend the semantics to avoid calling a spade a spade ('line breeding' is a weasel term if ever there was one - it is inbreeding, pure and simple).

    So: biologically, it is definitely inbreeding, and there WILL be consequences. The problem is that that the range of standard tests (hip scoring etc) focusses on a very, very narrow set of problems, while the effects of inbreeding can appear almost anywhere. They can take the form of impaired immunity, increased cancer risk, auto-immune issues, increased risk of metabolic disorders, accelerated aging etc etc etc.

    The key point is that people seem to think that something as simple and crude as a hip score will tell you if it's 'safe', when in fact there are thousands of small, slightly cryptic things that are going to be a bit worse in an inbred dog than an outbred one.

    It really comes down to what you're comfortable with subjecting an animal to. We would be utterly horrified to propose that level of inbreeding in a human: why should dogs be any different?

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