Greece

limulus

Well-Known Member
No not the stuff you cook your chips in.
Why do people seem so worried about the national debt of Greece?
They're 575billion in debt which is about 47k per person and 174% of gdp yet we, in the United Kingdom are 9.7 trillion in debt which is about 160k per person and 400% gdp!

Can someone explain to me why we are no more in the crap (a lot more it seems to me) than Greece?
 
It's a house of cards, a bit of a confidence trick. The reason that the UK, France, the US are not in the same amount of trouble is because the banks gamble that in the end, we'll be good for the money. If they didn't, they'd call in the debts and lend at punitive rates, which is what has happened to Greece. But if they suddenly called in the UK's debts, we'd be in just as much trouble. Apart from economic growth, which isn't exactly huge in either the UK or France for example, the banks trust the governments' ability to raise taxes in both countries. Raising tax is a thing that's Greek governments have always found almost impossible to do to the full extent that they should, the effective structures just aren't there.

So essentially, the banks gamble that they will make their money back, and as long as everyone keeps up the pretence, the house of cards stays up...
 
Somehow it seems to be immoral for wealthy officers at the European Central Bank to dictate to the Greeks that they should cut their old peoples pensions. Perhaps it would be better to agree that the Greeks cannot stay in the Euro and allow them to default on their debts, at least then they would have the opportunity of rebuilding their economy.

atb Tim
 
Don't look now but your pensions are linked to the success / failure of this issue; you'll retire shortly after you're dead at this rate, and owe tax for the privilege !

Not likely they will leave the euro zone, but they need will absorb huge amounts of Euros before this through and its the effect on the lenders that's significant

if there is no confidence of the debt being cleared then I agree with Pine Martin as he says the rates are high, and repayment period is measured in the 'lifetime of sun's': Investors want returns within a reasonable period !

They have one large asset .. coastal waters and a certain close Russian country who might like a new Naval Dock and access.

Alternatively, Maybe we can all chip in and buy those sun loungers by the pools, and prevent zer Germans from bagging em all !

TOMSK
 
Well the entire conversation has left the realms of reason. There isn't a scenario in which Greece pays back all its' debts, it isn't possible, you can't do it if your economy's shrinking. And it's clearly not acceptable for an elected government to condemn its' citizens to poverty in pursuit of an impossible goal imposed from outside. After all a government's first role is to protect and help its' citizens. All the discussion about how we ended up in this situation, previous kleptocractic Greek governments backed by the same banks who now want the debt called in, may be legitimate, but it doesn't help. And there's no particular reason why leaving the Euro would make any difference to the situation. What they need is a chunk of their debt written off. They can't pay it back anyway.
 
Well the entire conversation has left the realms of reason. There isn't a scenario in which Greece pays back all its' debts, it isn't possible, you can't do it if your economy's shrinking. And it's clearly not acceptable for an elected government to condemn its' citizens to poverty in pursuit of an impossible goal imposed from outside. After all a government's first role is to protect and help its' citizens. All the discussion about how we ended up in this situation, previous kleptocractic Greek governments backed by the same banks who now want the debt called in, may be legitimate, but it doesn't help. And there's no particular reason why leaving the Euro would make any difference to the situation. What they need is a chunk of their debt written off. They can't pay it back anyway.

The problem at the moment is that on the one hand you have a Greek government, voted in on an anti-austerity ticket, who have no viable means (or inclination) to either raise revenue or cut expenditure. On the other, you have a political troika who daren't write off the Greek debt as there are several other countries who would line up behind Greece to demand exactly the same (Spain, Portugal, Ireland, etc.). Furthermore, to do so would completely undermine the value of the Euro in the financial markets, causing a dash away and into more stable currencies.

It is difficult to see how this will end without the exit of Greece from the Eurozone.

It is all the result of fudging entry into the Euro in the first place, done for politically expedient means, and the standard belief of socialist governments everywhere that money does indeed grow on trees.
 
[h=1]"The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe." : Mikhial Gorbachev[/h]
 
What they need is a chunk of their debt written off. They can't pay it back anyway.

The problem there is that the Greek government has lived beyond its means for years.

Although they have made some cuts, when over 20% of your employment is in government and public corporations - an area of employment where the majority retire early with good pensions - they are left with very unpopular choices to meet the troikas demands. Greece is also notoriously lax in collecting taxes (a shame for them that tax evasion/avoidance isn't an Olympic sport).

They are currently playing hardball, suggesting that they won't make any further cuts. For reasons I explained elsewhere, writing off the Greek debt is only the start of a potentially long list of write-offs that would follow on, resulting in the Eurozone generally being viewed as very unattractive by the financial markets. None of the stronger countries (read Germany) can afford that, and nor do they see why they should pay for the financial impropriety of other nations.

My guess is that the Greek bluff will be called, at which point they will find themselves out of the frying pan and into the fire.
 
"The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe." : Mikhial Gorbachev

What's the equivalent Russian expression for "sour grapes"?
 
The Greek bailout, an informal explanation:

It is a slow day in a little Greek Village. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.

On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the village, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night. The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.

The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.

The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the taverna.

The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit.

The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note.

The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.

At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.

No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is how the bailout package works.
__________________
 
Perhaps a Greece desperate to enter the EU and bolster its failing currency should not have falsified its accounts to meet the EU entry criteria ?
Perhaps the Greeks think the EU owes them a living ?
Perhaps all nation states think the world (minus them) owes them a living.
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps, maybe, maybe - but falsified - certainly.
 
The euro,

The biggest mistake ever made buy the European countries,

Germany lost the war but they have the whole of Europe in the palm of their hands, and some wonder why some Brits want out,

Just my thoughts and I for one would tick the get out box,

Bob,
 
The Greek bailout, an informal explanation:

It is a slow day in a little Greek Village. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.

On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the village, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night. The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.

The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.

The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the taverna.

The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit.

The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note.

The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.

At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.

No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is how the bailout package works.
__________________

Except that in real practice the Greek inn keeper kept the money leaving the traveler with nothing?~Muir
 
Well shortly I will be doing my bit to prop up the Greek economy, taking cash in case the negotiations fail and there is a increased run on the banks. Might bug my hundred euro note and see who gets paid :lol:
 
Dear Limulus
In answer to your OP question

"Can someone explain to me why we are no more in the crap (a lot more it seems to me) than Greece?"

Firstly we must look at the UK's membership of the European Union. Back in 1975 the Country (UK) was asked to vote on what then was known as The Common Market. The EEC , European Economic Community , which was aimed to bring about economic integration between member states and was created by the Treaty of Rome in 1957.

However the Country was lied to by Edward Heath and the impact of a yes vote were not made public. Had it been it is possible the UK would have said No.

Contrast this with the Greeks. They were desperate to get their noses in the EU trough, they (by their own admission) fudged the figures to join the Euro and from day one played the system to their own ends and ever since have shown flagrant disregard to all and any EU Directives that got in their way.

In so far as their pensioners are concerned, apart from the fact that Greece has an unbelievably stupid and unsustainable retirement age which affects many Greeks, Remember many of these people who are now retired (lol at 53 on a state pension! ) are the very people who landed the country in the mess they are in.

Greece lived "high on the hog" now its payback time. Get real Greece

The bigger problem is the impact the failing EU experiment will have on the wider world which has nearly climbed out of the mess the Banks landed us in in 2007/8..

Here we go again

 
To put it another way.

Lets suppose you have a mortgage. Your income has reduced. You cannot afford to service it.

You went into the deal with your eyes open when you bought the house . Notwithstanding that even though you have cut back and you have told them you cant afford to eat properly and only eat grass do you think your mortgage lender will lend you money in order to service your debt to them?

Of course not.

They repossess.

Irrespective of its debt commitments the UK can service its debt. That is why it is not in the same "crap"

Simples
 
Now I'm the first to admit I'm not the sharpest chisel in the roll but,,, if Greece lied about stuff to enter the EU and then got its hands on a load of cash borrowed from the union that because of its lies it can't pay back ''who checked the creditability of their claims before entry?'' Then as a side spin to this thread what happens when all these very poor countries that are being let in in more recent times decide ''errrrr!! Sorry guys well ya know all that dosh ya lent us , we'll were on the bones of are arse ''just like we were when ya let us in'' and we can't afford to pay ya anything back !!!!!!
Regards
Jimmy
 
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