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Thread: RFD to RFD

  1. #1

    RFD to RFD

    Was almost caught out today when selling one of my rifles. The buyer wanted it sent via RFD as he was too far away to collect. I had misunderstood the whole RFD to RFD process so a cautionary tale here folks, and choose to do what you will, but this was what happened:

    I brought the rifle to my RFD and he had details of the RFD it was to be sent to. Perfect I thought, now just the paperwork and we're done. Not so. My RFD piped up with "have you marked this up on the buyers certificate because if not, I can't send it on, that's the law?"

    That threw me because I thought that the rifle stayed in my ownership until the person buying had transferred the funds and that the RFD "took possession" hence I am passing to his stewardship, hence I thought he provided me with details confirming that I had transferred the rifle to him, then he would do the same with the receiving RFD, who in turn would do the same with the buyer, so I could notify the police that I had transferred the firearm to the RFD. Not so. I checked with the Gun Trade Association via a call from my RFD and confirmation was received that RFD's act as couriers (receivers and senders only) and do not take legal possession, therefore if sending via RFD or receiving, the normal rules apply: ie you have to receive the buyers certificate by mail, fill in the relevant section, then post it back to him. He then presents it to the receiving RFD who can then legally transfer the rifle to the new owner.

    You learn something new every day. I mention this as a cautionary tale because plenty I know don't do it this way, they just leave with their RFD who is happy to transfer onto their possession then the RFD at the other end does the same, but strictly speaking, that's not legal because you are not selling to the RFDs (this was how it was explained to me anyway).

    It just means that a few extra days need to be planned for when transferring firearms to new owners using this system to ensure you have the paperwork in order (and use guaranteed special delivery for everything!).

    I'm probably teaching granny to suck eggs but thought this worth mentioning in case others were caught out.

  2. #2
    I'm an RFD and my licensing authority, West Mercia, require exactly the opposite - you bring the rifle to me, I write it onto my register as a transfer, get the receiving RFD's certification, ship the gun via TNT, the receiving RFD writes it onto their register as a transfer and then writes it onto the end recipient's certificate on collection.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamant View Post
    I'm an RFD and my licensing authority, West Mercia, require exactly the opposite - you bring the rifle to me, I write it onto my register as a transfer, get the receiving RFD's certification, ship the gun via TNT, the receiving RFD writes it onto their register as a transfer and then writes it onto the end recipient's certificate on collection.

    That's what I was told when I bought one. The "sending" rfd "owns " it (you gave him the rifle) until the rfd he's sent it to receives it (who then owns it). So the receiving rfd signs it on to the new owners ticket as he's now the legal owner.

  4. #4
    Can only pass on the message from my RFD and the gun trade association. I understood as you guys did until today, so clearly it's yet another grey area? I'll go back to my RFD but he seemed pretty certain/insistent.

    The issue here is that my RFD refuses to confer ownership on himself since no transaction has taken place between him and myself. I'm caught in the middle but he assures me that he's checked this many times with the gun trade association.
    Last edited by ChesterP; 22-10-2015 at 19:39.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamant View Post
    I'm an RFD and my licensing authority, West Mercia, require exactly the opposite - you bring the rifle to me, I write it onto my register as a transfer, get the receiving RFD's certification, ship the gun via TNT, the receiving RFD writes it onto their register as a transfer and then writes it onto the end recipient's certificate on collection.
    Thats the way I do it too - for the past 15ish years. I really wish folk would stop trying to invent problems.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by 243ack View Post
    Thats the way I do it too - for the past 15ish years. I really wish folk would stop trying to invent problems.
    So do I as I could have done without the hassle to be honest, but I'm in a situation now where I have paid for a firearm which he refuses to release to me until I have posted my certificate to the issuing dealer to complete and send back to me, so as I say, I'm caught in the middle.

  7. #7
    A quick search of forum threads seems to suggest that my RFD is correct maybe:

    http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.u...7-RFD-Transfer

  8. #8
    Just checking the FAC guidance notes and note 4 on sale or transfer does indeed state:

    "If you are selling a firearm and/or ammunition which will be sent or posted to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person...you should complete the table(s) and notify the police of the transaction..." It goes on to say "...The dealer who actually hands over the firearm...should not complete the table(s) or notify the police..."

    Therefore my RFD strictly speaking is correct as I have not sold the forearm to him, I have sold it to the end user, and he is merely acting to transfer the firearm so does not have to complete the certificate tables and notify the police that he has taken possession. I notify the police of the RFD (give the RFD number), date of transaction, end buyers details and certificate number etc.

    The grey area here is what constitutes "sold" as I could claim that I have given the dealer the firearm, then he gives it to the reciving RFD who then gives it to the end buyer and fills in the tables. However, strictly speaking the only sale which transfers ownership (as opposed to possession) is that between myself and the end buyer. Confusing as I know there's clearly two opposing views on this, and it seems even the police have differing opinions depending on which force you deal with.

    Last edited by ChesterP; 22-10-2015 at 20:17.

  9. #9
    I suppose the simple answer would be for the rfd to give you one penny in return for your rifle, technically it's his then

  10. #10
    The way I have been doing it for quite some time now is that I 'Give' my firearm to my local RFD who the takes it off of my FC and puts it on his register as stock.
    He then finds out from my prospective purchaser, that an RFD near my purchaser wants exactly what I have just given to my local RFD so gets in touch.
    My RFD then transfers it from his stock to the RFD near my purchaser who then takes it on his stock and informs my purchaser that it is available.
    My purchaser then pops along to his RFD who then strikes it from his register and enters it on his FC.
    I pay my RFD a small sum of money for his time and the cost of carriage to the other RFD.
    The purchaser then pays a small sum of money to the other RFD for his time and accepting it from my RFD.

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