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Thread: Unaccompanied Gunbearers

  1. #1

    Unaccompanied Gunbearers

    Concerning shotguns. Can someone point me to the section of legislation concerning gun bearers. Specifically whether they can transport a shotgun on behalf of the certificate holder if they themselves do not have one. I can't seem to find it!
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  2. #2
    From Firearms Guidance.

    Gun bearers
    6.38 Section 11(1) of the 1968 Act exempts from the certificate requirement a person carrying
    a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of the 1968 Act applies, or shotguns, under
    the instruction of another person who holds a certificate and for that other person’s use
    for sporting purposes only. It does not entitle the bearer to use the firearm or shotgun. The
    courts have found that this exemption does not extend to unaccompanied possession
    of the firearms concerned, for example by a chauffeur transporting the firearms from one
    town to another, in which instance a certificate or permit would be required. Where the
    person doing the carrying is under eighteen, the exemption only applies if the certificate
    holder is eighteen or over – as per the amendment inserted by SI 2010/1759.

  3. #3
    I'm not sure that such an exemption from holding a FAC exists.
    People in business as carriers, RFDs or their servants - I think these folk may in the course of their trade possess shotguns without holding SGC.

    I think Sec 11 (1) below is usually taken to mean possession by someone who is with the certificate-holder and who is under the certifcate-holders immediate instruction, and attendant on their current sporting purpose. I'm not sure what the case-law is, though.

    Firearms Act Sec 11 (1)
    A person carrying a firearm or ammunition belonging to another
    person holding a certificate under this Act may, without himself
    holding such a certificate, have in his possession that firearm or
    ammunition under instructions from, and for the use of, that
    other person for sporting purposes only.

  4. #4
    I believe they can only carry your gun whilst in your company/proximity (i.e. two steps behind you as you walk to the next peg). If they were taking it, say in their car without you present, to an RFD for you they would be in unlawful possession.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tackleberry270 View Post
    Can someone point me to the section of legislation concerning gun bearers.
    Gosh we are getting posh! Bundook-wallahs no less. There'll be chai-wallahs and masalchis next, just you wait.

  6. #6
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by pinkfoot1 View Post
    I believe they can only carry your gun whilst in your company/proximity (i.e. two steps behind you as you walk to the next peg). If they were taking it, say in their car without you present, to an RFD for you they would be in unlawful possession.
    There has always been a debate about what is mean,t as under immediate instruction , I would say a maximum of a couple of meters away, yet some people believe as long as they are in eye sight, there has not been a legal case that I can find ( you will prove me wrong now I have said that) to prove either.

  8. #8
    It will have to be close enough to excercise direction over the guns location. Such as "dont walk away son, come here", or "pass me my gun".

  9. #9
    I once was asked to carry 110 guns SGC & FACs after some auctions he had attended from Peterborough over to Germany for my pal who has a gun shop there.
    He organised the import paperwork for Germany and Bradshaws organised the export paperwork to another EU state.
    So I was staying in Dover anyway and I went down to customs in the eastern docks and asked if this was OK answer was if paperwork is in order it is OK by them.
    Then I call the Maidstone Firearms dept where my certs are issued and they say OK too.
    Then I call Dept of Trade & Industry as it was then known and they say OK too.
    So off I go and collect them all and sign for them.
    Down to Dover Eastern docks go I and get pulled into the permanant check that in my experience is always done for single men in a vehicle, was pulled into the security hall, I tell the wallah there what I have he goes white then he calls Harbour board police who call the Channel tunnel swat team so now I have all hell happening OH Poo think I.
    The swats could not fault the documentation so they left after one hour but the poor Harbour board bobby and myself had to go through every carton and crosscheck serial numbers to the export paperwork which took another 4 hours.
    He told me afterwards that the swats thought they had nabbed a gun runner ha bloody ha.
    And at the end I still could get no clear guideance ref what certificate paperwork does a carrier need to transport legal goods out of the UK. Gun paranoia rules in the UK, versus normal business in the rest of the EU
    The DTI/Customs/FAC dept were all of no help either.
    But they did let me go.
    Last time I will do a courier job.
    Martin
    Last edited by Bavarianbrit; 25-11-2015 at 11:12.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by pinkfoot1 View Post
    I believe they can only carry your gun whilst in your company/proximity (i.e. two steps behind you as you walk to the next peg). If they were taking it, say in their car without you present, to an RFD for you they would be in unlawful possession.

    I would have thought it would be the same as used for Estate rifle/shotgun use ie Direct Supervision (where they can actually shoot the gun ) argued between Eyesight and earshot usually
    you could say the bearer is carrying under that rule (occupier is defined as any body who has a right on the land some places permission to shoot is recognised as a right )

    and you can Posses Firearms and shotguns without any paperwork if you are acting as a servant for an RFD

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