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Thread: Thoughts on 8 mm Kurtz, 7.62 x 39, and 6.8 mm.

  1. #1
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    Thoughts on 8 mm Kurtz, 7.62 x 39, and 6.8 mm.

    Which would make the best military assault rifle caliber? I think the Germans had it nailed back in the 1940s.

  2. #2
    Actually, I'd argue the British / Belgiums / Canadians had it nailed Ca. 1950 with the .280/30 British aka 7X43mm aka 7mm Mk1z aka 7mm NATO aka 7mm FN Short and a few more names to boot. Throw in the original superb 1950s FN FAL (Fusil Automatique Leger) which really was (full auto / selective fire) automatic and light unlike the final long, heavy, and semi-auto version dictated by the adoption of the over-powerful US T65E3 / 7.62 NATO cartridge.

  3. #3
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    Never heard of that one Laurie. One of the reasons I like this site, actually lean a few things here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurie View Post
    Actually, I'd argue the British / Belgiums / Canadians had it nailed Ca. 1950 with the .280/30 British aka 7X43mm aka 7mm Mk1z aka 7mm NATO aka 7mm FN Short and a few more names to boot. Throw in the original superb 1950s FN FAL (Fusil Automatique Leger) which really was (full auto / selective fire) automatic and light unlike the final long, heavy, and semi-auto version dictated by the adoption of the over-powerful US T65E3 / 7.62 NATO cartridge.
    Looked it up, no doubt the British round has better ballistics, however it has a COL of 65 mm vs the Kurtz of 48 mm. Advantage of he German round would be you could carry more ammo and have a smaller lighter gun. Trade offs in everything.

  5. #5
    Current research and development on the 'Ideal' cartridge and caliber are swinging between the 6.5mm for it's inherent accuracy and the 7mm for downrange kinetic energy delivery so a compromise is likely, the 6.8mm.
    The cartridge will be a Kurtz probably a cartridge based on a Rem .30cal or similar. This keeps weight and bulk down allowing a larger number to be carried and loaded.
    The 6.8 SPC has been trialed by the Americans and would be acceptable but the forces are not keen on the expense of changing all their weapons. Instead they have gone for improving the projectile used in the 5.56x45 NATO. Not sufficient as many who have fought in Afghanistan will testify. The round simply hasn't got the authority at 300m+ for suppressing fire to keep the enemy's head down or to knock them off.

  6. #6
    Laurie, I loved my SLR L1A1 but we were hampered by it's semi auto ability. For a while the addition of a piece of matchstick below the sear rendered it full auto but as with the later (With it's official 'piece of matchstick') L2A1 the rifle was uncontrollable, uncomfortable and undesirable.

  7. #7
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    8 m Kurtz 123 gr. @ 2250 - 1940s
    6.8 SPC 120 gr. @ 2460 - 2002

    Wonder what he Kurtz would do if necked down to .27?

  8. #8
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    I'd be more interested in what would happen if you bumped the Kurtz up the 10 Ksi it's down compared to modern cartridges. Same for the 7.62x39 for that matter.
    Any Questions Feel Free to PM me

  9. #9
    You could try it. The German case is available and a custom reamer from Manson Reamers in America doesn't cost that much. Dies will though.
    Lots of sizing down and neck reaming needed but it would be an interesting wildcat. The case would be very strong so in a strong short action, loads could be pushed to the limit. Has anyone got a copy of Barnes Cartridges of the World to hand? I'm on the mine so can't look to see if this has been done.

  10. #10
    The Kurtz has a greater capacity than the 5.56 x 45 so I'd say loads would be aprox that of the 6.8 SPC. Capacity is the major factor in load development if projectile weights and action strength are equivalent.
    I used to do wildcats so my approach to load development may seem a bit cavalier to some. Remember when doing a new case and load there ARE no references or precedents to help. So approximation, a cradle and a long piece of string round the trigger are the norm.

    Addit: I've just had a look at the relative case capacities of the 7.62 x 39 and the Kurtz and they are very very close. I'd say that given a steep shoulder (improved) angle the Kurtz would be the same. So you would be wasting time playing with it. Use a PPC case instead.
    To see what kind of results can be got from this case go to information on the 220 Russian and the .22, 6mm family of PPC cases.
    Last edited by hybridfiat; 21-12-2015 at 23:17.

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