a very pure way of deer stalking

sir-lamp-alot

Well-Known Member
dont know if this has been shown before and i missed it but i just found this on youtube and it certainly made me think about the way in which i stalk
 
What a wonderful short film. That is how I learned to hunt, and is still my favorite, with rifle, handgun or bow.

This film is tasteful and a good representation of our sport. Hats off to the hunter, the film maker, and to Mauser.
 
It's a good little film for sure, but surely tainted with the use of binoculars?
Nice if you are a recreational stalker who has the luxury of countless visits to achieve a cull.
I personally find it distasteful (from a poor deer management perspective) to call in and shoot the best bucks during the Rut when there are clearly better cull animals about! Their guard is down and you could probably whack one with a shovel with a little more effort and time spent! Trophy hunting is not conducive to good deer management!
Feeling a bit poorly tonight so excuse any minor rants!
MS
 
First of all, this film is about the challenge of hunting by stalking close to wary game. We don't know anything about his reasoning for choosing to take this older, mature buck. It seems to me to have nothing to do with a "trophy". This hunter is trying to improve his stalking skills and style in preparation for an African plains hunt.

Not all hunting is culling for herd management.

Also, a lot of herd management for quality has the philosophy of only taking mature, trophy bucks, along with the old, the sick and lame, and older barren does. Young deer are never "culled", because under this strategy, they will have an ever-improving genetics and produce healthier herds with more "trophy" antlers.

In most countries, there are more hunters than in the UK, and shorter seasons, and small bag limits - perhaps on only one buck with at least 6 points, for example. The season might only be ten days. Many hunters will go for years without getting a shot, in a state like Pennsylvania, Maryland, or New England states. So when they do get to hunt, they may take off work and hunt every day for an entire week. In other states, like parts of Alabama, South Carolina, and Mississippi, the season may run from mid-August to December 31, with limits like 5 bucks, or 2 bucks plus 4 doe tags for every buck you take, or even one deer per day if they are over-populated. If you travel from a big city to the West or Midwest, you are not going to pass on a trophy whitetail or mule deer and take some puny forkhorn.
 
First of all, this film is about the challenge of hunting by stalking close to wary game. We don't know anything about his reasoning for choosing to take this older, mature buck. It seems to me to have nothing to do with a "trophy". This hunter is trying to improve his stalking skills and style in preparation for an African plains hunt.

Not all hunting is culling for herd management.

Also, a lot of herd management for quality has the philosophy of only taking mature, trophy bucks, along with the old, the sick and lame, and older barren does. Young deer are never "culled", because under this strategy, they will have an ever-improving genetics and produce healthier herds with more "trophy" antlers.

In most countries, there are more hunters than in the UK, and shorter seasons, and small bag limits - perhaps on only one buck with at least 6 points, for example. The season might only be ten days. Many hunters will go for years without getting a shot, in a state like Pennsylvania, Maryland, or New England states. So when they do get to hunt, they may take off work and hunt every day for an entire week. In other states, like parts of Alabama, South Carolina, and Mississippi, the season may run from mid-August to December 31, with limits like 5 bucks, or 2 bucks plus 4 doe tags for every buck you take, or even one deer per day if they are over-populated. If you travel from a big city to the West or Midwest, you are not going to pass on a trophy whitetail or mule deer and take some puny forkhorn.

I suggest you look again at about 4:04 minutes he says something like the buck not being mature so he knows that he will not shoot it. He is clearly after mature bucks only and passed the chance to cull an ideal cull buck.
In the UK we do not have any natural predators any more, so it is essential that we try to replicate what nature would have intended with natural selection and the 'survival of the fittest'. A natural cull by predators would include mostly young animals, some old, sick or lame animals, and just a handful of mature animals such as bucks that are exhausted or injured during the rut and AFTER the rut! This is pretty much the opposite to the philosophy you suggest? This style of hunting does not show respect for the deer at all - it is merely gratification for the hunter. Shorter seasons or bag limits shouldn't affect the quality of the deer you shoot as they are there to protect the welfare of the deer. The amount of time you get off work or the distance you have travelled should not influence your choice of animal to cull!
Good deer management should focus on the needs of the deer and NOT the needs of the stalker!
Shooting mature bucks during the rut when they are vulnerable and otherwise pre-occupied is not only 'unsporting', it goes completely against what nature would have intended.
MS
 
'Nice little film', and that is as far as it goes! It 'smacks' of elitism, 'look at me, how good am I' ? The hunter enthuses over the ethics and ethos of his 'traditional' 'back-to-nature' method of hunting, lamenting how binoculars have taken away the animals natural advantage over us as hunters. Yet, at the same time he is happily sporting a fine pair of his own! Why he needs them at those ranges defeats me! Additionally, using a 'substantial' magnum calibre could also be argued he is furthering his advantage. With his muddled and confused view of doing things 'more naturally' he ought to be chasing them about the woods with a spear and an axe!
I agree entirely with MS, trophy hunting has no place in deer management.

'Camodog'.
 
What I am saying is that deer biologists and landowners with tracts large enough to maintain several fo the same herds of deer have an entirely different philosophy of "culling" than what is believed and practiced in the UK. Those in Germany apparently have a different one, too.

Having hunted predators for over 50 years, I don't ascribe to the theory that they only take the weak and old animals. They take targets of opportunity, which often include majestic but solidary bulls and bucks, or fawns and calves which had the genetic potential to be great examples of the species.

I enjoy getting different perspectives on game management and different hunting styles, which is why I come to this SDUK site. I also enjoy seeing someone like this German hunting pretty much the same way as his ancestors did with a bow or spear, and he was able to get close enough to use those. But had he used a self-made bow and wood arrow with stone tip to take what the BASC thinks is an appropriate "cull buck", there would have been a great howl from some other corner.
 
I have spent quite a bit of time hunting around Europe Ms and there idea of culling is vastly different to ours.
they like to leave young animals and only shoot older beasts in hopes they get bigger or medal status, red stags get a second wind as they start going back they leave them to watch them get bigger before taking them.
They have the same idea for roe we have them over here and they won't take a young animal as they feel left alone they will mature to become a medal head.
put a foreigner in front of a malform and see how long it is standing for it won't be long lol
 
I have spent quite a bit of time hunting around Europe Ms and there idea of culling is vastly different to ours.
they like to leave young animals and only shoot older beasts in hopes they get bigger or medal status, red stags get a second wind as they start going back they leave them to watch them get bigger before taking them.
They have the same idea for roe we have them over here and they won't take a young animal as they feel left alone they will mature to become a medal head.
put a foreigner in front of a malform and see how long it is standing for it won't be long lol

You are undoubtedly right, and is it any coincidence that their Roe heads are quite poor? If you keep shooting the best animals, the species can only de-generate!
I'm sure that genetics plays a part, but the Europeans love to come to the UK to shoot our fine beasts. If their theory was good, then their own Roe would be a lot better than they are now? Ours will surely head the same way if they are mismanaged? They may have been doing it longer than us, but are they doing it right, and for the right reasons? Trophy hunting of medal status deer is not good for the species!
MS
 
You are undoubtedly right, and is it any coincidence that their Roe heads are quite poor? If you keep shooting the best animals, the species can only de-generate!
I'm sure that genetics plays a part, but the Europeans love to come to the UK to shoot our fine beasts. If their theory was good, then their own Roe would be a lot better than they are now? Ours will surely head the same way if they are mismanaged? They may have been doing it longer than us, but are they doing it right, and for the right reasons? Trophy hunting of medal status deer is not good for the species!
MS
i have spent many nights saying the same MS what works for one species doesnt work for all many factors involved. Why does one area hold huge reds but not other species, a very interesting subject indeed
 
You are undoubtedly right, and is it any coincidence that their Roe heads are quite poor? If you keep shooting the best animals, the species can only de-generate!
I'm sure that genetics plays a part, but the Europeans love to come to the UK to shoot our fine beasts. If their theory was good, then their own Roe would be a lot better than they are now? Ours will surely head the same way if they are mismanaged? They may have been doing it longer than us, but are they doing it right, and for the right reasons? Trophy hunting of medal status deer is not good for the species!
MS

OK then - so why are their reds humungous - and ours are ..... not?

I've never hunted in Germany but have in Poland, Austria and Denmark where the practises are pretty similar.

In September I was hunting in Poland (for boar) but saw a vast number of truly huge reds - some of which were taken by my group (one trophy weighed in at 10.1KG) - and huge numbers of roe. One morning we sat out from before dawn I saw upwards of a hundred roe - no boar though!

The fact seems to be that despite shooting a significant proportion of the best beasts (up to and including the rut) the genetics and good feeding pull the animals into the HUGE category. On estates here (I'm on Atholl estate at the moment) they have been culling as you describe for over a hundred years - and the "best" stags are still poor - even when fed hay etc in the winter and with access to low ground woods.
 
OK then - so why are their reds humungous - and ours are ..... not?

I've never hunted in Germany but have in Poland, Austria and Denmark where the practises are pretty similar.

In September I was hunting in Poland (for boar) but saw a vast number of truly huge reds - some of which were taken by my group (one trophy weighed in at 10.1KG) - and huge numbers of roe. One morning we sat out from before dawn I saw upwards of a hundred roe - no boar though!

The fact seems to be that despite shooting a significant proportion of the best beasts (up to and including the rut) the genetics and good feeding pull the animals into the HUGE category. On estates here (I'm on Atholl estate at the moment) they have been culling as you describe for over a hundred years - and the "best" stags are still poor - even when fed hay etc in the winter and with access to low ground woods.

It's all about genetics! (well - mostly)
Our Breckland Reds around Thetford are also huge compared to most others in the UK. They are genetically different and alleged to have originated from park deer containing some Wapiti genes.
Food and nutrition clearly play a part, but genetics is the deciding factor. This is where I believe we are creating problems, but the difference over a hundred years may in fact be quite negligible.
Our domestic livestock breeds have been developed over hundreds (thousands?) of years by us choosing the best traits of particular animals and using those animals to breed from. Trophy hunting is effectively selective breeding in reverse!! Culling the best animals in the rut before they have had chance to breed and leaving the lesser bucks to pass on their genes is surely bad for the genetics of the species?
MS
 
Many others on here are better qualified than I to speak on this, but I have heard that you can take a magnificent stag from down south, put him in a highland environment and, in quite a short time, he has regressed to much the same as what else is around. Now, if it was genetics, that surely shouldn't happen? It also cannot just be feeding as I recall " bogtrotter" - and please excuse me if I am giving the wrong name - stating that you can have deer in winter, feeding and dying - to paraphrase.
On a slightly different note, it appears that some on this forum feel that "trophy hunting" must be the most despicable trait in any human. Thank god we are all different.
 
It's all about genetics! (well - mostly)
Our Breckland Reds around Thetford are also huge compared to most others in the UK. They are genetically different and alleged to have originated from park deer containing some Wapiti genes.
Food and nutrition clearly play a part, but genetics is the deciding factor. This is where I believe we are creating problems, but the difference over a hundred years may in fact be quite negligible.
Our domestic livestock breeds have been developed over hundreds (thousands?) of years by us choosing the best traits of particular animals and using those animals to breed from. Trophy hunting is effectively selective breeding in reverse!! Culling the best animals in the rut before they have had chance to breed and leaving the lesser bucks to pass on their genes is surely bad for the genetics of the species?
MS

That was the point - if its all about genetics - why doesn't it work?

Estates here have been culling on the principles you describe (and are widely understood here) - and the animals are still crap! Even in areas were wapiti and Carpathian reds have been let loose, after 20-30 years no genetic trace is left.

I guarantee that if the same beasts were taken to an area with better feeding and better underlying soil minerals the weights and the heads would improve out of all proportion. Even in the small area I control one particular wood produces markedly better heads than any others - same genetics - there are no deer fences.
 
Many others on here are better qualified than I to speak on this, but I have heard that you can take a magnificent stag from down south, put him in a highland environment and, in quite a short time, he has regressed to much the same as what else is around. Now, if it was genetics, that surely shouldn't happen? It also cannot just be feeding as I recall " bogtrotter" - and please excuse me if I am giving the wrong name - stating that you can have deer in winter, feeding and dying - to paraphrase.
On a slightly different note, it appears that some on this forum feel that "trophy hunting" must be the most despicable trait in any human. Thank god we are all different.

I don't really think a fine stag would shrink to half its original size due to transporting it to the Highlands? Sure, he may well lose half his body weight and then die as he is not used to that environment and wouldn't be able to take on the amount of good food he is used to to sustain him. He is not genetically suited to that environment and there is not enough food to sustain his bulk so once again, it is surely a bit of both?
Deer management is a necessity that is quite easy to justify and is generally accepted, even by those that don't hunt themselves. Trophy hunting however, is very difficult to justify (other than revenue gained) and portrays us in an entirely different light. Consider public perception and our future maybe?
MS
 
That was the point - if its all about genetics - why doesn't it work?

Estates here have been culling on the principles you describe (and are widely understood here) - and the animals are still crap! Even in areas were wapiti and Carpathian reds have been let loose, after 20-30 years no genetic trace is left.

I guarantee that if the same beasts were taken to an area with better feeding and better underlying soil minerals the weights and the heads would improve out of all proportion. Even in the small area I control one particular wood produces markedly better heads than any others - same genetics - there are no deer fences.

I think it has long since been proven that a certain area can only produce animals of a particular quality. No amount of genetic intervention, feeding or mineral supplements can raise this. Mother nature has set the quality of animals at this level and we will probably never fully understand how or why? However, if we continually choose to kill the best animals that mother nature can produce on that area, then the quality of animals in general can only really head in one direction. Nature and evolution work through survival of the fittest. Killing the best/fittest animals can surely only result in degeneration of species by negative natural selection.
MS
 
That was the point - if its all about genetics - why doesn't it work?

Estates here have been culling on the principles you describe (and are widely understood here) - and the animals are still crap! Even in areas were wapiti and Carpathian reds have been let loose, after 20-30 years no genetic trace is left.

I guarantee that if the same beasts were taken to an area with better feeding and better underlying soil minerals the weights and the heads would improve out of all proportion. Even in the small area I control one particular wood produces markedly better heads than any others - same genetics - there are no deer fences.

All too true. I have seen small whitetail deer captured from a very warm coastal area which is overpopulated, and transplanted to piedmont farmland where there is lots of browse, hay, oats and corn, and the herds will be taller and 50% heavier in body weight next generation. Conversely, I have seen large bodied deer from cold climates transplanted to the South, with lots of food year round, yet the heat forces them to adjust, and body weights decrease by 30 percent. The deer in Texas, who have to scrounge for food, have large frames and antlers because of the minerals in the soil, yet a mature buck may not weigh but 150 pounds, and not skinny.

So each of those populations would have to be managed through selective hunting in quite different ways.
 
Have always wondered what it would be like to stalk deer in the UK using iron sights and even asked the stalker that I used to book with down in Sussex about it. He was not keen on the idea at all. My thoughts were more along the lines of the hunting aperture sight that used to be so common and not the barrel mounted open V irons but not target sights either. Hunting ones tend to be made more robustly. Southern probably knows the type I mean. Redfield and Lyman in America made such sights and possibly Parker-Hale here in the UK but though I know they made target sights after all my target rifles were fitted with Parker-Hale target sights I seem to remember seeing a slightly different type many years ago.

Course my stalking was for meat in the freezer so was mainly on the Does. Likewise I once saw a beautiful classic Single shot stalking rifle offered for sale in Fultons of Bisley they even allowed me to handle it even though we both knew it was beyond my price for a rifle. It was a falling block action and was not in the more usual big game cartridge it had a hunting aperture sight just behind the action and when brought to the shoulder the sights fell in place to see through. Cannot remember if it was 303 or 7x57 now as it was many years ago now but the price was out of my reach. Still it is something to think on and maybe dream about.
 
'Nice little film', and that is as far as it goes! It 'smacks' of elitism, 'look at me, how good am I' ? The hunter enthuses over the ethics and ethos of his 'traditional' 'back-to-nature' method of hunting, lamenting how binoculars have taken away the animals natural advantage over us as hunters. Yet, at the same time he is happily sporting a fine pair of his own! Why he needs them at those ranges defeats me! Additionally, using a 'substantial' magnum calibre could also be argued he is furthering his advantage. With his muddled and confused view of doing things 'more naturally' he ought to be chasing them about the woods with a spear and an axe!
I agree entirely with MS, trophy hunting has no place in deer management.

'Camodog'.

Deer plans, or lack thereof, and 'trophy' hunting aside, I must admit I like the way he does it. I don't think it's elitist in being proud of what you do and he obviously thinks it's better otherwise he wouldn't do it.
I didn't hear him mention binoculars but I think going open sights negates it. He may spot the deer at two or three yards but he can't do owt about as his rifle isn't set up for that.
So he is still limiting himself and forcing himself to get closer and, if he enjoys it, more power to him.

Looking at his other videos I would say that 308 is his usual deer round of choice. The 416 Rigby was, as stated in the video, used to further his familiarisation with the rifle and I see nothing wrong with that. Let's face it, it did the job :)
 
Have always wondered what it would be like to stalk deer in the UK using iron sights and even asked the stalker that I used to book with down in Sussex about it. He was not keen on the idea at all. My thoughts were more along the lines of the hunting aperture sight that used to be so common and not the barrel mounted open V irons but not target sights either. Hunting ones tend to be made more robustly. Southern probably knows the type I mean. Redfield and Lyman in America made such sights and possibly Parker-Hale here in the UK but though I know they made target sights after all my target rifles were fitted with Parker-Hale target sights I seem to remember seeing a slightly different type many years ago.

Course my stalking was for meat in the freezer so was mainly on the Does. Likewise I once saw a beautiful classic Single shot stalking rifle offered for sale in Fultons of Bisley they even allowed me to handle it even though we both knew it was beyond my price for a rifle. It was a falling block action and was not in the more usual big game cartridge it had a hunting aperture sight just behind the action and when brought to the shoulder the sights fell in place to see through. Cannot remember if it was 303 or 7x57 now as it was many years ago now but the price was out of my reach. Still it is something to think on and maybe dream about.

Sounds like the one I have on my stalking rifle which is a flip up, tang mounted Marble's aperture sight, see below:

View attachment 64827

And a grainy close up...
View attachment 64828
 
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