Reloading Mannlicher Schoenauer 6.5x54

deeangeo

Well-Known Member
Now that my M1903 has been scoped I'm ready to start loading some ammo for it and ask my fellow readers what recipes you use for making the rifle go bang - with a degree of accuracy?

The rifle is never going to 'cloverleaf' and I have some recipes using H4895 & IMR3031 from 25 years ago. However, since that time, those propellants may have changed somewhat. Certainly the packaging has.

Currently I have 37gns of IMR4350 powering a 160gn Hornady RN Interlock bullet & Rem. 9 1/2 primers. Total OAL of 2.944"
The barrel on my rifle is 22 1/2" and I'm trying to achieve a close RWS factory ammo MV of 2350fps.
The cartridge cases are brand new Norma & headspace at 1.7" the fired RWS cases I have measured, fired case headspace/deprimed @ 1.704 - 1.705"

I haven't yet tested the above load, so have no idea if it will work satisfactorily or not.
If the rifle gives 1" MOA @ 100yds, I'll be content, better & I'll consider it a bonus.

I'd appreciate any input from you all. Cheers.
 
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Have a look at http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x54_MS.htm

also the Hornady manual has a couple of loads. Also try the IMR and Norma websites - they all have data. The Hornady manual is now in an electronic version for c£10.

Kynochammo is now loading 6.5x54 with a 140 gn bullet at Scottish deer legal velocities. I really like these rifles, but they have the bolt handles on the wrong side for me :(, otherwise I would be very tempted to acquire one.
 
What is the Scottish legal MV ( or muzzle energy) requirement ?

RL-19 or IMR-4350 should safely get close to 2,500 fps with 140-gr bullet, and a 129-gr even faster.
I used to shoot 140-gr Hornday bullets in mine, which is what came in the Norma ammunition I got with the rifle ( 20 inch carbine ).
 
Thanks folks. Scottish required MV is 2450fps with 1750ft lbs ME.
I know I can readily achieve this with a 140gn bullet, but I rather like the idea of using the 160gn RN bullet. Legal in England for deer, but not Scotland.

I shall develop a load for both though - with the 140gn SST too.
Cheers.
 
Have you ever seen the more recent documentary on John Kennedy with the interview of the Army ballistics expert who tested Lee Harvey Oswald's Carcano rifle? He replicates the experiment with a Mannlicher 6.5x54MS and a 160-gr RN, to show how deep and straight the penetration is, compared to other common hunting and military rounds. I bet a 140-gr Barnes TSX would give it new wheels.
 
Have you ever seen the more recent documentary on John Kennedy with the interview of the Army ballistics expert who tested Lee Harvey Oswald's Carcano rifle? He replicates the experiment with a Mannlicher 6.5x54MS and a 160-gr RN, to show how deep and straight the penetration is, compared to other common hunting and military rounds. I bet a 140-gr Barnes TSX would give it new wheels.

I saw an extensive documentary some time ago. It was an investigation by an ex CIA or detective chappie. The footage shown of the 1st ladies agent who at the time of the shooting was riding in the following car, clearly shows an agent in that car, lift a full auto assault rifle. The rifle was described as cocked/being cocked while being raised. The angle of the shot from that rifle is speculated to be the correct one for the bullet to have struck Kennedy leaving the wound that killed him. An accidental shot from one of his own CIA agents rifle. That was the documentary conclusion. Right/wrong? We're never going to know.

As for penetration of the 160gn bullet, it's never been doubted. The problem in Scotland is that the MV doesn't meet the legal requirement, the ME is well above the legal minimum.
That means a 140gn bullet must be used to generate the necessary MV in Scotland. For the rest of the UK a 160gn bullet is just fine & dandy.
 
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And for the Scottish 'problem' we have the idiots of the BDS to thank. Which is why I will never give a penny to them nor join them and give them a legitimacy.

Rant over. Well I haven't even started. But...

Hornady do, or did, as a bullet for reloaders, the classic 160 grain RN in two diameters. One ideal for generous bore sized MS rifles. And Hirtenberger, now defunct, did ammunition as did RWS.

It's also a fine wild boar round. Yet we have today's idiots saying that .270 Winchester should be a 'minimum calibre' for those in UK.

Amazing then, and now, these experts. Obsessed with velocity or "calibre" for its sake without regard to real world performance.
 
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I was shooting on Kynamco's range this evening and asked a friend of mine what he loads for stalking with his 6.5 x 54 MS. He says 39 gr N165 for a 140gr bullet and 37gr N150 for a 120gr bullet. I also asked David Little (who owns Kynamco) if this calibre is one they routinely load - it is, but only in the 140gr bullet weight because this is legal for deer in Scotland; details on this page:


I'd be interested to hear what load you find makes a 160gr bullet deer-legal in Scotland.

HTH

Andrew

 
All interesting stuff folks. Thankyou...time will tell where I end up. Plainly it'll have to be a 140gn for Scotland, unless!!...I find something with enough thrutch to push a 160gn bullet to 2450MV
 
I was shooting on Kynamco's range this evening and asked a friend of mine what he loads for stalking with his 6.5 x 54 MS. He says 39 gr N165 for a 140gr bullet and 37gr N150 for a 120gr bullet. I also asked David Little (who owns Kynamco) if this calibre is one they routinely load - it is, but only in the 140gr bullet weight because this is legal for deer in Scotland; details on this page:


I'd be interested to hear what load you find makes a 160gr bullet deer-legal in Scotland.

HTH

Andrew


Andrew,
I have no idea if I'll get a 160gn bullet to legal MV for Scotland. More experienced heads than mine will have attempted the challenge I reckon. But, I really do like the stopping power of the Hornady 160 gn Interlock. Used it before, and most certainly I shall use it again.

It is a great probability that more deer in Scotlands past have been shot using a MSch 6.5x54 with a 160gn bullet, than with any other combination during the last century.
Quite why it was decided there had to be a minimum MV when ME energy would really be the deciding killing factor, lord only knows...but, it is what it is and people with more authority than knowledge are likely to have been involved in the decision making.
Cheers, d
 
Just be aware that it has a significantly smaller capacity to a 6.5x55 Swedish and the 6.5x54R Swedish, so load data is NOT interchangable.
 
Quoting from the Hornady 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] Ed manual ….

36.8 grs of IMR 4350 with their 6.5mm 140gr bullet (#2630) gave 2100 FPS.

The 160gr (#2640) managed 2100 FPS with 37.3 grs of IMR 4350. Another very reliable source (Ken Waters – ‘Pet Loads’) says 37.0 grs delivered only 1920 fps.

Hornady don’t always retest the older calibres so these loads are probably extant in the newest edition which I don’t have.

Kynamco are claiming 2700 fps for their 140gr load which does not sound at all likely.

I’m sure someone with Quickload on their PC will be along to say that 6.5x55 velocities are achievable, but the 6.5x54 MS is very long-throated, and the M1903 or 1903/14 barrel length usually quoted is 17.5” to 19.3”. Given that the provenance of your rifle is unknown, and this action isn’t as strong as the Mauser 98 why push things?
 
Here's some US data from John Barsness based on a 19 inch barrel - only including the loads for 100 grains or more and 2450fps, using Norma cases and Federal 210M primers.

100 grain Nosler Partition 44.5 grains of Norma 204 for 2788 fps
120 grain Nosler Balistic Tip 43 grains of Norma 204 for 2639 fps
129 grain Hornady Interlock 44 grains of H4831SC for 2464 fps
 
Here's some QL data I got a hold of using one of the propellants giving a better case fill & MV. With a 26" barrel rather than a 22", you'd probably gain maybe at best 30fps per 1" so add approx 120fps MV
I think that's perhaps an average guesstimate of where the MV might be.

Cartridge : 6.5 x 54 Mannl. Schoen.

Bullet : .264, 140, Hornady SST 26302
Useable Case Capaci: 43.745 grain H2O = 2.840 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.063 inch = 77.80 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : IMR 4350


Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !


Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms


-20.0 78 31.44 2058 1317 28296 7365 86.6 1.587
-18.0 80 32.23 2108 1381 30071 7612 87.8 1.546
-16.0 82 33.01 2157 1447 31954 7856 89.0 1.506
-14.0 84 33.80 2207 1514 33951 8094 90.1 1.468
-12.0 86 34.58 2257 1584 36072 8328 91.2 1.430
-10.0 88 35.37 2307 1654 38325 8555 92.2 1.390
-08.0 90 36.16 2357 1727 40721 8775 93.2 1.351
-06.0 92 36.94 2407 1801 43267 8988 94.1 1.314
-04.0 94 37.73 2457 1876 45962 9193 95.0 1.278 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 96 38.51 2507 1953 48806 9389 95.7 1.243 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 98 39.30 2557 2032 51826 9575 96.5 1.209 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 100 40.09 2606 2112 55039 9751 97.1 1.176 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 102 40.87 2656 2193 58460 9916 97.7 1.145 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 104 41.66 2706 2276 62105 10070 98.2 1.114 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 106 42.44 2756 2361 65991 10211 98.7 1.085 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 108 43.23 2805 2446 70140 10339 99.1 1.056 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!



Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 98 39.30 2678 2229 61163 9578 99.7 1.125 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 98 39.30 2400 1791 42740 9145 89.7 1.316
 
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The data with which Southern has favoured us shows a 156gr pill going at about 2400fps from a 19" barrel. If you allow that 30fps/inch you'd get 2610fps from 26". The extra 90fps might result from the weight-reduction to 140gr?

I'd be surprised if, in this era of widespread chronograph-availability, Kynoch published misleading ballistic data.
 
Interesting articles on the 6.5 ms

My father had one when I was very young, made in 1906 with the butter knife bolt handle and it was fitted with a very early model telescopic sight. It had a bad reputation among a lot of Highland deer stalkers, as it was regarded as a bit of a "rainbow round" that dropped off badly after 120 -130 yards, it was known as the foreleg breaker. It was of course using low pressure powders and bullet design then isn't what it is today. It does need to be loaded lightly.

I shot a close cousin of one last summer at the range in Cawdor. One of the members brought along a Mannlicher-Schoenauer made for King Alphonso of Spain and engraved with his coat of arms. It was chambered for .275 Rigby (7x57) and handled nicely. I managed to get to within 4" of the bull at 300, and the owner was in the black !



(http://www.chuckhawks.com/other_6-5mm.htm)

(http://www.chuckhawks.com/m-s_carbine.htm)
 

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