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Thread: FAC cert conditions - expanding ammo for vermin only?

  1. #1

    FAC cert conditions - expanding ammo for vermin only?

    I have 22LR, 22WMR and 222.
    The conditions of my certificate are as follows:

    Part 5: The .22 & .222 RIFLES SOUND MODERATORS & AMMUNITION to which this certificate relates shall be used for VERMIN CONTROL (.22) & VERMIN/GROUND GAME/HARES/FOX (.22WMR & .222) and for zeroing & practice on RANGES, or LAND deemed suitable by the CHIEF OFFICER of POLICE for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

    Part 6: The holder of this certificate may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition or the missiles of such ammunition in the calibers authorised by this certificate and may use such ammunition only in connection with:
    The shooting of vermin or, in the course of carrying on activities in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife.


    Questions:
    1. So as it reads, does that mean I cannot purchase expanding ammo for foxes, ground game or hares?
    2. Currently I believe cannot shoot muntjac or cwd with my .222 and am also not allowed to go north of the border to shoot roe with .222 as my cert doesn't state DEER, however; can someone define what GROUND GAME is? Just rabbit and hare? Or are deer classed as ground game?
    3. Can i shoot expanding ammo for zeroing and practice?


    Many thanks

    P.s. This isn't about me abusing the conditions of my license, i just need to know if i need to write to the local plod and ask them to add DEER to my .222 when i put in for my .243

  2. #2
    Firstly how would you know if your shots were zeroed, if you could not use the ammunition to zero, so yes you NEED to zero with the same stuff you are shooting live quarry with.
    in the course of carrying on activities in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife. This will cover deer, as you are carrying out deer management, it is similar to AOLQ, Ground game is anything classed as GAME & is unable to fly .
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  3. #3
    Suggest you read the HO Guidance for Police Appendix 3 for the full range of conditions.

    1) Look at the 'expanding ammo' condition and you'll see that anything other than vermin on your certificate is included under 'other wildlife', although they have cherry picked the full condition.

    2) If you can already provide the 'good reason' for your .222 on CWD, muntjac or roe north of the wall then go ahead and request that deer be added now. Otherwise request that the .222 is included along with the .243 when the time comes. Deer are not ground game, in fact they are not 'game'.

    3) Yes.

    4) No reason why your FLD can't simplify the whole 'use' condition for all your rifles, moderators and ammo once you have deer included by following the HO Guidance (see the begining of Appendix 3) and make it:

    The firearms and ammunition shall be used for shooting deer and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing-practice on ranges,
    on land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the
    holder has lawful authority to shoot.
    Last edited by Orion; 07-04-2016 at 12:48.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by finnbear270 View Post
    in the course of carrying on activities in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife. This will cover deer, as you are carrying out deer management, it is similar to AOLQ, Ground game is anything classed as GAME & is unable to fly .
    No it doesn't cover deer. There is a specific element of the 'expanding ammo' condition that his FLD have missed off - that's the problem when FLDs tinker around with and bastar*ise conditions.

    The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles for
    such ammunition, in the calibres authorised by this certificate and for use only in connection with:
    (a) the lawful shooting of deer;
    (b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife;
    (c) the humane killing of animals;
    (d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by finnbear270 View Post
    Firstly how would you know if your shots were zeroed, if you could not use the ammunition to zero, so yes you NEED to zero with the same stuff you are shooting live quarry with.
    in the course of carrying on activities in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife. This will cover deer, as you are carrying out deer management, it is similar to AOLQ, Ground game is anything classed as GAME & is unable to fly .
    The strict definition of "Ground Game" is limited to hare and rabbit - have a look at Section 8, Ground Game Act 1880: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...44/47/contents

    There's also a very helpful note published by BASC: https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/plugi...oad.php?id=333

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by nicowilson View Post
    The strict definition of "Ground Game" is limited to hare and rabbit - have a look at Section 8, Ground Game Act 1880: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...44/47/contents

    There's also a very helpful note published by BASC: https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/plugi...oad.php?id=333
    " Anything classed as game", as you have stated, "Hare & Rabbit", neither of these I believe can fly., Deer, seem to remember them being classed as lawful quarry, these licensing people who tinker around & conjure up their own versions cause all the confusion.
    Last edited by finnbear270; 07-04-2016 at 14:18.
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by phillips321 View Post
    I have 22LR, 22WMR and 222.
    The conditions of my certificate are as follows:

    Part 5: The .22 & .222 RIFLES SOUND MODERATORS & AMMUNITION to which this certificate relates shall be used for VERMIN CONTROL (.22) & VERMIN/GROUND GAME/HARES/FOX (.22WMR & .222) and for zeroing & practice on RANGES, or LAND deemed suitable by the CHIEF OFFICER of POLICE for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

    Part 6: The holder of this certificate may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition or the missiles of such ammunition in the calibers authorised by this certificate and may use such ammunition only in connection with:
    The shooting of vermin or, in the course of carrying on activities in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife.


    Questions:
    1. So as it reads, does that mean I cannot purchase expanding ammo for foxes, ground game or hares?
    2. Currently I believe cannot shoot muntjac or cwd with my .222 and am also not allowed to go north of the border to shoot roe with .222 as my cert doesn't state DEER, however; can someone define what GROUND GAME is? Just rabbit and hare? Or are deer classed as ground game?
    3. Can i shoot expanding ammo for zeroing and practice?


    Many thanks

    P.s. This isn't about me abusing the conditions of my license, i just need to know if i need to write to the local plod and ask them to add DEER to my .222 when i put in for my .243

    classic example of illiterates writing legalese

    get on to them and tell them what you want it to say verbatim

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