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Thread: More Guns Less Crime

  1. #1
    Established Poster
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    More Guns Less Crime

    It is with some trepidation that I enter this dicussion as I know this area is a hot potato. I have decided to create a new thread as I want to raise an issue that seems to be missing in UK gun debates.

    John Lott has written an interesting book called "More Guns, Less Crime". He draws a corrolation between the tightness of gun control and violent crime. The corrolation is extremely strong. Where guns are banned, violent crime is highest. Where gun laws are freeist, particularly with Concealed Carry allowed, it is lowest.

    Correlation does not prove causation, of course. However, one can understand that one may be less likely to rob a bank if you do not know which of your follow customers is armed.

    So, a legitimate response to Cumbria can be, not that the Police should be armed, but that any individual should be able to arm himself should he choose to do so. But, we hear little of this in the UK press.

    (I was in Vermont some time ago and was told by someone I met that not only did he not lock his house at night, but he did not lock it when he went on holiday! Another correlation, but there are few controls on gun ownership there.)

  2. #2
    I have in my head that Switzerland has a very low crime rate. I belive this is down to the fact that every man over 18 (?) has a service rifle, as he may be called up at any time.

    Dont know my view yet.

    Sam
    "Even at the very bottom of the river, I didn't think to myself, Is this a hearty joke or the merest accident? I just thought, it's wet." - Eeyore

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    I have in my head that Switzerland has a very low crime rate. I belive this is down to the fact that every man over 18 (?) has a service rifle, as he may be called up at any time.

    Dont know my view yet.

    Sam

    That's right, Sam.

    I used to work in Switzerland and it was amazing to see people regularly carrying automatic rifles around.

    I think that the Swiss claim to be able to put a million man army on the street in 24 hours. They were not invaded in WW1 and WW11, not because Switzerland was neutral, but because they were neutral and armed. (An interesting book is "Target Switzerland".)

    Another small story is that a colleague took me and some other colleagues back to his house to work on a customer presentation. We left our laptops in the boot of his car, and when we were surprised that he did not lock the car and asked him to, he just said, "You're in Switzerland now!".

    Regards

    NewForester

  4. #4
    Could not agree more.

    There will always be guns, just more illegal ones if legislation is tightened. The cumbrian fellow would not have got far if folk could have shot back.

  5. #5
    There is a trial of the plan to loosen gun control certain areas of Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham and Nottingham. The results to date are far from convincing.


    Regrettably it seems that Chavs will kill with whatever they have to hand let’s not put guns in those hands please, not everyone is as law-abiding as the standard FAC holder. Most of the people I know have a good moral sense and I would trust them with my children’s life, But there is a large populous in my area that I wouldn’t trust with round nosed scissors let alone a firearm.
    Last edited by Welsh Guy; 08-06-2010 at 17:00.

  6. #6
    We could in this country learn from the mistakes in the USA and create gun laws which would work even better. The CCW concealed carry warrant could work here if those to which it was granted were vetted correctly. No criminal record, regular psych evaluations etc etc. The US states which have introduced the CCW have seen dramatic decreases in violent crime, Hienliens' dictum of, "an armed society is a polite society" seems to have validity. Why should law abiding citizens not be armed? What is the real reason? Is it really an increase in crime? Evidence says no it actually drops, so logic dictates there are other reasons and I am not sure the real reasons the state do not want us armed are for our own good. It is more likely it is for the states good.

    Matt

  7. #7
    Switzerland was not invaded, because Germany needed a safe secretive neutral country to stash it's wealth, stolen from it's victims of invasion and anti semitism. To trust it to any other state would have left them at risk if that country became itself invaded by the allies, or Germany lost the war (what a ridiculous thought). That is why Switzerland was left by the Germans, nothing to do with their army I'm afraid. The Swiss were simply more useful as a neutral state than as a German one.

    You might be right about the increase of arms link to a lower crime society, but this was not a good example.

    Kind regards,

    Mark.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by NewForester View Post
    That's right, Sam.

    I used to work in Switzerland and it was amazing to see people regularly carrying automatic rifles around.

    I think that the Swiss claim to be able to put a million man army on the street in 24 hours. They were not invaded in WW1 and WW11, not because Switzerland was neutral, but because they were neutral and armed. (An interesting book is "Target Switzerland".)

    Another small story is that a colleague took me and some other colleagues back to his house to work on a customer presentation. We left our laptops in the boot of his car, and when we were surprised that he did not lock the car and asked him to, he just said, "You're in Switzerland now!".

    Regards

    NewForester
    Last edited by buckup; 08-06-2010 at 17:37.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by NewForester View Post
    [FONT=Georgia]I think that the Swiss claim to be able to put a million man army on the street in 24 hours. They were not invaded in WW1 and WW11, not because Switzerland was neutral, but because they were neutral and armed.
    Come on in...and fight your way up every street. It's a credible plan.

    Was it Lord Salisbury who said he would laud the day when there was a rifle propped behind every kitchen door in England? That was before the executive got paranoid about a Bolshevik-style revolution here, of course.

    Frankly, I'm with Welsh Guy. I think the cousins of his undesirables live near me. Never mind scissors. I wouldn't trust them with a pencil sharpener.
    Last edited by KevinF; 09-06-2010 at 05:05. Reason: Salisbury, not Cardigan
    KevinF -

  9. #9
    Not too long ago I spent some time in Houston. Whilst I was there I strolled into the local shooting range to see if I could have a play. All members of staff really friendly and openly carrying in hip holsters. was given a choice of pistols to shoot so spent some time with a .45 1911 for old times sake then had a go with a full auto Thompson. Ended up having a good old chat with the staff regarding the ccw situation. Basically because anyone in Texas can carry a gun openly the petty crime rate is very low. I think they need a permit to carry concealed.

    I think the ethos is a good one but the problem lies in keeping the guns out of the wrong hands. What the Cumbrian shootings have highlighted to me are that the police are unable to protect the public adequately in these situations despite one murder being witnessed by several police officers. If CCW permits were allowed what would the chance be of there being an armed member of the public present at the time of the Hungerford, Dunblane or Cumbria shootings? I suspect fairly low. One question raised by one of my members of staff was... if you were out shooting and witnessed Birdie on his rampage, what would you be legally allowed to do?? What would the ramifications be for an individual who has rid society of a bad apple, would it be a pat on the back and cucumber sandwiches with the queen or would you be made a scapegoat and hounded for life??

    Answers on a postcard please.......

  10. #10
    There is also the other side of the coin, if you were to be a witness to something like which has just come to pass, you had the means to stop him & didn't? would you be able to forgive yourself? would you think about yourself before you did something to stop something like that?............ doesn't bear thinking about does it?
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

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