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Thread: accurate control

  1. #1

    accurate control

    Does every one find it easier to gain good groups with a sound mod fitted or am I doing something wrong on follow through, oh yes its 07/08mm which is pretty mild by all accounts, any comments appreciated.

  2. #2
    A mod can smooth out the transition for the bullet from the barrel to the air. It can contain the turbulence of the gasses and therefore may well improve accuracy.

  3. #3
    My Sako 75 Hunter in .243 with 22 1/2" barrel needs a firm forend grip to get anything out of it. I often check everything at a pipe range with & without a moderator on & there's almost nothing in it, although I would say I get very slightly smaller groups with the mod off (which is how I prefer to shoot it when stalking). There are various differences in POI though, more of this later.

    I put the slightly smaller groups down to a couple of things:

    1. There's going to be more recoil & muzzle blast with no moderator so I prepare myself better for the shot & take more time. I've often suspected that mods can make you lazy about technique.

    2. The moderator I have is an Ase compact jet-z which is really quite heavy. When I took it to be bedded the gunsmith fitted a collimator & it was very interesting (read horrifying) to see how the relationship of the scope to the moderated barrel changed as I moved the angle of the rifle. I haven't tested the difference in real-world situations i.e shooting on the flat vs a 45 degree shot downhill but it was enough to make me nervous. Yes, I know you can get lighter mods but I prefer the rifle without it at all. This makes quite a difference to barrel harmonics & the way different bullets respond to shooting with & without a mod. My standard 100g bullet with mod on & mod off registers roughly a 2" difference but if I shoot faster bullets such as a 75g at 3400fps I can get a difference of 8". It may be that different bullets will work better for mod on & mod off for you which would bring the group size closer together.

    Obviously you'll have had a gunsmith check that the barrel & moderator are concentric.

  4. #4
    My thoughts are the same, wondered if im become lazy with the mods and a bit more range tm with out the mod might not be a bad thing.When I get an hour ill try again.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by jtl View Post
    My thoughts are the same, wondered if im become lazy with the mods and a bit more range tm with out the mod might not be a bad thing.When I get an hour ill try again.
    I suggest you only shoot with the mod on and if you are not happy with the results, then get some training. Also select the ammunition that gives the best results with the moderator on. To shoot well you need to get to a place where you are not thinking about your kit or your ammunition, you just pick it up and use it.

    The SE Scotland BDS branch recently organised some marksmanship training and it was based on this concept - Natural point of aim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are many elements to shooting well, but the ones I focus on are -


    • Natural point of aim.
    • Practice.
    • Formal training.
    • Competition.


    There are a few naturally talented people who can shoot without bothering about these concepts, but most of us can't.

    Regards

    JCS

  6. #6
    The heavier the rifle the easier it is to shoot tight groups. Going to extremes look at bench rest rifles with their very thick and heavy bull barrels, or indeed the AW sniper rifles which weigh 14lbs plus. But in the stalking world we are not shooting from stationary positions or needing to take out targets at a mile plus.

    Mods are heavy so the extra weight smooth things out and reduces / slows down felt recoil. They also slow down the release of gas, again which has an effect on how they shoot.

    Key to accuracy are the harmonics of the rifle and this is a mix of the the cartridge, barrel, stock and how it interfaces with the shooter. You want consistency with the bullet leaving the barrel at same point in the harmonic cycle. Sticking a mod on the end will have a major impact on the dynamics of the rifle and in particular on how the barrel vibrates. Chances are it will shoot differently with mod on / off. It may or may not be more accurate, it may or may not be more accurate with a different load or brand of ammo, and it may or may not shoot differently as regards how you hold it.

    For a stalking rifle set it up and zero it as you would when taking it stalking. Concentrate on first round placement from a cold barrel.

    And practice dry firing. Just read Craig Harrison's the longest kill. He spent hours just dry firing, or just lying keeping cross hairs on a target. Don't try and aim per se, but think your bullet into the target.

    Have a read of Hold that Forend! - makes a lot of sense to me. There has been a lot of influence from target / sniper / prone type shooting coming into stalking, but this forgets that we are often using v different kit.

    And don't overthink it. We don't need tiny groups on paper from a very stable bench. We need to be able to put a bullet through the engine room of a buck that steps out of the wood 73.78 yards ( or is it 103.45 - actually you haven't a clue) in front of you with just a few heart beats to assess the quarry, whether or not it's safe and to take the shot.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Heym SR20 View Post
    The heavier the rifle the easier it is to shoot tight groups. Going to extremes look at bench rest rifles with their very thick and heavy bull barrels, or indeed the AW sniper rifles which weigh 14lbs plus. But in the stalking world we are not shooting from stationary positions or needing to take out targets at a mile plus.

    Mods are heavy so the extra weight smooth things out and reduces / slows down felt recoil. They also slow down the release of gas, again which has an effect on how they shoot.

    Key to accuracy are the harmonics of the rifle and this is a mix of the the cartridge, barrel, stock and how it interfaces with the shooter. You want consistency with the bullet leaving the barrel at same point in the harmonic cycle. Sticking a mod on the end will have a major impact on the dynamics of the rifle and in particular on how the barrel vibrates. Chances are it will shoot differently with mod on / off. It may or may not be more accurate, it may or may not be more accurate with a different load or brand of ammo, and it may or may not shoot differently as regards how you hold it.

    For a stalking rifle set it up and zero it as you would when taking it stalking. Concentrate on first round placement from a cold barrel.

    And practice dry firing. Just read Craig Harrison's the longest kill. He spent hours just dry firing, or just lying keeping cross hairs on a target. Don't try and aim per se, but think your bullet into the target.

    Have a read of Hold that Forend! - makes a lot of sense to me. There has been a lot of influence from target / sniper / prone type shooting coming into stalking, but this forgets that we are often using v different kit.

    And don't overthink it. We don't need tiny groups on paper from a very stable bench. We need to be able to put a bullet through the engine room of a buck that steps out of the wood 73.78 yards ( or is it 103.45 - actually you haven't a clue) in front of you with just a few heart beats to assess the quarry, whether or not it's safe and to take the shot.
    Spot on. Thanks JCS

  8. #8
    I always shoot with the mod on since I got it and its far sweeter shoot. Having had a brief spell of tinitus following a zero session of six rounds with hearing protection I don't want it back. Its a fairly heavy .270 and with the T8 fairly cumbersome but the big difference is I retain the site picture on shooting so its now far easier to mark where the bullet went and hopefully where the animal went to grass and far easier for a follow up shot if required. The recoil felt is less and I think the follow through smoother. As was said in one of my favorite films "slow is smooth, smooth is fast". It groups better than I can shoot and absolutely fine for the ranges I am likely to shoot at. However more practice needed. When culling some boar once the job was done, my friend had a shot with a 223 unmoderated and everyone jumped at the bang. Tom

  9. #9
    A 7-08 shouldn't present enough recoil to affect group size unless there is another fundamental problem IMO

    I shoot a .222 with and without a mod (without for walked up staking for balance and comfort, with for foxing at night in urban environs)
    groups size is the same. I made sure of this when I set zero and worked out POI change without Mod

    The group size in my 300wm is smaller with a mod and bipod than with a brake/bipod.
    but then I am shooting a stainless T12 that weighs close to 700gr on a sporter stocked/barrelled rifle
    The recoil control of slapping 3/4 of a KG on the end is not to be underestimated

    The difference is between the pic on the left shot at 135yds and a group where 3 of 5 are touching and 2 are off by 5-10mm, all within an 1-1.5" Outer diamter


    what difference in group size are you getting?
    shooting with a bipod?
    what hold are you using?

  10. #10
    Retaining the sight picture is more a function of good technique. If the rifle is held properly and firmly but relaxed it should return to point of aim and you can watch the shot. I have a light rifle without a mod and even with 173gn bullets have no issue watching the reaction to shot. Also it has a fixed 6x scope that also helps.

    If if rifle is not going back to point of aim post shot you need to look at your technique.

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