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Thread: Reasonable length of 'probabtion' before an open ticket is granted

  1. #1

    Question Reasonable length of 'probabtion' before an open ticket is granted

    Friend of mine was chatting with me last week.

    He is down south of Nottingham, has a bunch of permissions, and has had a .22lr and .17 HMR for the last 18 months. He's gone through over 1,500 rounds on the HMR in that time and a fair few .22lr as well.

    I drafted a letter of enquiry for him, asking his local dept about having his ticket opened and the possibilities of applying for a deer calibre. They basically told him to come back after 4 years in total and ask again on both counts.

    The letter asked for confirmation of calibres that the various permissions are cleared for and this question was totally ignored.

    What exactly is considered reasonable here ?

    I have advised him to join BASC and seek legal advice because this strikes me as individual stance rather than policy and legislation.

    How does he proceed without making waves ?

    Thanks for looking.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by .30-06 View Post
    Friend of mine was chatting with me last week.

    He is down south of Nottingham, has a bunch of permissions, and has had a .22lr and .17 HMR for the last 18 months. He's gone through over 1,500 rounds on the HMR in that time and a fair few .22lr as well.

    I drafted a letter of enquiry for him, asking his local dept about having his ticket opened and the possibilities of applying for a deer calibre. They basically told him to come back after 4 years in total and ask again on both counts.

    The letter asked for confirmation of calibres that the various permissions are cleared for and this question was totally ignored.

    What exactly is considered reasonable here ?

    I have advised him to join BASC and seek legal advice because this strikes me as individual stance rather than policy and legislation.

    How does he proceed without making waves ?

    Thanks for looking.
    I don't think he can proceed without making at least a bit of a choppy surface. A .22 and HMR should be opened up after 12months. He should be able to go for a higher calibre (centrefire) and he should (if he has fox) ask for a .223.
    I would think after 12 months with a .223 closed, that would be opened up and if he decided to stalk, he should be allowed a .308 for stalking (if he has a couple/4 of receipts and a letter of confirmation of safety from the stalker). That is what Cheshire tend to do, Manchester (GM) similarly and West Yorkshire give most necessary guns on an open ticket.
    I would proceed on your own with a letter setting out where you want to go with your sport, quote the advice you have been given and say you feel this is unduly restrictive and that no response was received to a legitimate question of what your permissions were cleared for.
    Suggest you should have been given a response which corresponds with the spirit and letter of HO Guidance, or, an explanation of why you are being denied a reasonable freedom to use your rifles and aquire those necessary for your sport presented with good reason. Suggest that failing a more reasonable response you will have no alternative but to go to your shooting organisation to take the matter up on your behalf. This Letter / email should be sent to the manager of the appropriate firearms licensing unit with a request for confirmation of receipt. Better still take it by hand if you are near.
    The advice he has been given is unreasonably restrictive and he should have both his present firearms opened after demonstrating such an obvious need, experience and safety. Choose your org based on Firearms experience, there are a few.
    Last edited by kes; 13-06-2016 at 21:35.

  3. #3
    Make a variation application for a deer calibremand see what happens
    TonyC

  4. #4
    Why does he want, or need an open ticket, does he have a good reason to request it ? Round count isn't in itself a good reason. Having lots of land to shoot on, that may, or not have been cleared, AND round count to show experience may be sufficient. Two rimfire calibres doesn't necessarily help, as most land will be cleared for it.

    The criteria for owning a rifle is simple, you need to show "good reason". If your friend can show he wants a rife to shoot deer, and can show that he either has land with deer on, or can show he has booked stalking, they have no reason to refuse, and will have to give a very good reason not to grant the condition.

    Drop the open request for now, unless you really have a good case. Put in a variation for the deer calibre of choice, with a covering letter stating the rifle will be used for deer stalking, show a permission with deer on it, or booked stalking (they may well check) and it should not in itself, be an issue.

  5. #5
    Good on you advising him to join BASC or one of the society's, but he should be ashamed to admit he is not a member of one already.

  6. #6
    A request for an 'Open' may be needed if the shooter has invitations from other shooters to go onto their permissions, or from new land owners to shoot on their land, at short notice.

    With a 'closed' licence, having to try and check that the land is cleared, could prove 'problematic' especially during 'out of hours' times.

    Whilst Humberside police are satisfied that simply asking the landowner if the land has been cleared is sufficient, this may not be the case with all areas.

  7. #7
    Again we seem to have inconsistency in the firearms licencing.

    Having had permission and authority to shoot over ex amount of land with smaller non centre fire weapons is one thing, but requesting permission to own and use a centre fire weapon does raise certain points. Firstly the police should know if the land he is on is cleared for centre fire up to a certain calibre. The authority he already has is not open for smaller calibres and therefore the onus is on the chief constable if there should be an accident. Once you have an open ticket the onus is on you as an individual if there is an accident and asking for an open ticket with a large centre fire weapon is something most if not all constabularies will not allow without Level 1 or past experience with deer.

    I would advise your friend to take Level 1, and then seek authority to purchase a centre fire rifle. You have not mentioned if your friend has stalked deer before? or how long he has held a FAC.

    Good luck.
    All grades of deer stalkers/hunters in the UK and overseas catered for. Level 2 DMQ signing off available. Over 30 years experience in the stalking/hunting industry. For friendly and professional help go to www.UKOutfitters.co.uk

    ZEISS PRO STALKER.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by sikamalc View Post

    I would advise your friend to take Level 1, and then seek authority to purchase a centre fire rifle. You have not mentioned if your friend has stalked deer before? or how long he has held a FAC.

    Good luck.
    In answer the last question he stated 18 months.
    As for taking level 1, it is not a compulsory requirement so why do it.
    The law says you only need to justify the request for a calibre with good reason, it says nothing about a voluntary qualification.

    Neil.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet 6 View Post
    In answer the last question he stated 18 months.
    As for taking level 1, it is not a compulsory requirement so why do it.
    The law says you only need to justify the request for a calibre with good reason, it says nothing about a voluntary qualification.

    Neil.
    Correct ! We certainly seem to enjoy saddling ourselves with voluntary "qualifications " that have zero basis in firearms law and letting the police make things up as they go along
    There are no perfect men in this world ..... Only perfect intentions

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet 6 View Post
    In answer the last question he stated 18 months.
    As for taking level 1, it is not a compulsory requirement so why do it.
    The law says you only need to justify the request for a calibre with good reason, it says nothing about a voluntary qualification.

    Neil.
    You are correct that DSC1 is not legally mandatory, however if you are reasonably new to centerfire rifles and are trying to get a "large" caliber and on an open ticket then demonstrating to the police that you have met an internationally recognised level of competence in shooting, stalking and the law is probably a good way to go, in addition to getting some experience stalking and ideally a reference or two from a stalker you've been out with.

    Additionally a lot of FLO's are starting to push for stalkers to sit it and eventually it will most likely become mandatory, as it is in a lot of countries on the continent (you cant hunt moose in Scandinavia without it for example), so might as well get it done ahead of the rush!

    It sounds like the OP's friend doesnt have any stalking experience or experience with CF rifles, so I'd suggest getting some paid stalking in, cull a few deer and maybe see if his guide is prepared to write him a note of support/recommendation after a few outings, sit his DSC1 at the same time and then he will hopefully find the FLO is much more amenable to granting a CF variation and open ticket.

    Much as the admin and hoops to jump through can seem onerous at times when one is keen to get stuck into a new sport I can see it from the FLO's point of view - If someone can demonstrate they know what they're doing stalking, have letters saying they know what they're doing from more experienced stalkers and have sat an exam I'd feel much happier granting them an open ticket for CF.

    If the approach is just "well I have good reason within the law, gimme" then ok they may have no choice but to grant, but I'd certainly put restrictions on the ticket to reduce the risk especially as it will come back on the police in the event of an incident, God forbid!

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