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Thread: My gun on a friend's permission?

  1. #1

    My gun on a friend's permission?

    Hi all,

    I regularly act as lamp man for a good friend on his permission, a local golf course. We both have HMRs but I've been trying a NV thing on mine. My question is this - if he leaves his rifle in the cabinet, can we legally take mine and use it on his permission without an issue?

    I can can hear you saying "surely just ask for your own permission on the land" but I'm afraid the golfers aren't very willing to let multiple people have access! Could easily be a case of if they (landowner/police) don't know then nobody minds but I don't really like to go along with that, I'd rather everything was above board before o set out!

    Thanks

  2. #2
    If the Golf Club are ok with it no problem on the permission side of things, I'm not entirely sure that you can legally lend your friend your HMR to shoot with unless he has a vacant slot on his FAC, I might stand to be corrected on this by someone more knowledgeable e.g. BASC.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Iwanttoshoot View Post
    Hi all,
    My question is this - if he leaves his rifle in the cabinet, can we legally take mine and use it on his permission without an issue?

    Simple answer No. You will need permission to shoot and also the necessary condition on your certificate if it isn't an open certificate.

    Were you thinking of using the estate rifle exemption? It would not apply under the circumstances you describe.
    Last edited by 8x57; 20-07-2016 at 06:14.
    It's the calibre of the shooter that counts not the calibre of the rifle.

  4. #4
    I have permissions on lots of golf clubs, i regulary take my mate with me and let him shoot, he has an open certificate, i always notify the police when i am on golf courses, i just ask my mate to give them his details, never had any problems.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by whinfell View Post
    I have permissions on lots of golf clubs, i regulary take my mate with me and let him shoot, he has an open certificate, i always notify the police when i am on golf courses, i just ask my mate to give them his details, never had any problems.
    But does he have permission to shoot over these clubs other from simply you? Are you considered to be the occupier of the land or the person with the shooting rights?
    Last edited by 8x57; 20-07-2016 at 06:57.
    It's the calibre of the shooter that counts not the calibre of the rifle.

  6. #6
    I agree with others, right now the short answer is no.

    You were granted your ticket to purchase a rifle under certain conditions, so as long as you are not in breach of your licence conditions then you are ok. These will probably be something like "XYZ animal and AOLQ, where you have permission to shoot and where the land has been cleared for that caliber by the chief of police for that county", assuming you are on a closed ticket.

    If your friend is the holder of the shooting rights and therefore is in a position to legally grant you permission to shoot on that land, and you have it in writing from him, then that covers the first bit - you have permission from someone who is in a position to give it to you.

    If he is a shooting tenant only and his agreement with the land owner doesnt cover him authorising others to shoot then he cannot give you the ok and you cannot shoot there.

    Assuming he can give you permission the second thing would be confirming with the police that the land is cleared for that caliber. If your mate has an HMR but an open ticket then he can shoot on that land legally as long as he has permission, but that doesnt mean the police would allow you to on a closed ticket so its worth checking with them before taking your rifle out. There is a Deer and Vermin control form on most police websites that you can submit to them to check the land is cleared and demonstrate you have permission to shoot. Hampshires is attached.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Destruction of Vermin Deer Application Form.pdf  

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 8x57 View Post
    Simple answer No. You will need permission to shoot and also the necessary condition on your certificate if it isn't an open certificate.

    Were you thinking of using the estate rifle exemption? It would not apply under the circumstances you describe.
    This is the legal, correct answer.

  8. #8
    Thanks all! I was assuming this would be the case but I wanted to check!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Iwanttoshoot View Post
    Hi all,

    I regularly act as lamp man for a good friend on his permission, a local golf course.
    We both have HMRs but I've been trying a NV thing on mine. My question is this - if he leaves his rifle in the cabinet, can we legally take mine and use it on his permission without an issue?

    I can can hear you saying "surely just ask for your own permission on the land" but I'm afraid the golfers aren't very willing to let multiple people have access! Could easily be a case of if they (landowner/police) don't know then nobody minds but I don't really like to go along with that, I'd rather everything was above board before o set out!

    Thanks

    Does anyone actually read the questions or do they just start jumping in regardless.

    He didn't ask if he could use his rifle on someone else's ground.
    He asked if his mate could use his rifle on ground his mate already has permission on.
    The authority to shoot on the ground and the authority to use a specific firearm are not linked (unless the golf course has somehow gone to the extent of listing what firearm he can and can't use which is extremely unlikely!)

    OP is a lamp man
    His mate has permission on a golf course, (assume it is either cleared for HMR already or Mate has an open FAC, regardless the same answer)
    OP has an HMR
    His mate has an HMR (NV)

    Can his mate use OP's HMR (NV) in his presence? Yes of course he can! This is the only relevant question
    Can his mate use a rifle on ground he has permission to use a rifle on? Yes, of course he can.
    Can OP use his rifle on Mate's ground? No, not without consent from owner of land or unless he has rights to bring shooting guests onto his land.
    Can Mate use OP's rifle on his land without OP being there? No of course not

    None of this is relevant to Sec 16 of the Firearms Act which is entirely focused on Exemption from holding an FAC and borrowing a rifle to shoot without FAC.
    Neither is it "Estate Rifle" clause as the shooter is the permission owner but not the rifle owner

    Think you are really trying to make this harder than it seems

    Consider this.
    I want a .243 but would like to shoot it first before buying
    I find one and ask seller to attend a piece of ground I have permission to shoot on for the purposes of evaluating said rifle. (this could be a range or just open ground)
    I have an open FAC/Ground is cleared for .243 and up, actually doesn't make any difference if I have a slot for .243 or not, I have a valid FAC.
    Seller has FAC listing said rifle and is in my presence at all times.

    can I shoot his rifle on my ground?
    Yes of course I can!

    You either have permission to shoot on that ground or you don't (rarely is calibre/specific rifle detailed)
    You either have permission to hold a rifle or you don't
    You either have an FAC or you don't

    all these combined in the scenario above are perfectly legal
    The authority and good reason to be on that land with your rifle are clear.
    Last edited by bewsher500; 20-07-2016 at 14:47.

  10. #10
    Brewsher you are not absolutely and technically correct.

    The basic fact of law is that the firearms act requires the shooter to have a FAC covering the firearm that they will be shooting or that they are exempted from requiring a FAC by virtue of one of the many exemptions contained within the firearms acts. The shooter must also have the necessary permission from the occupier of the land or the person who posses the shooting rights and appropriate conditions on their certificate.

    I like your scenario about the .243 rifle but to absolutely correct in law in order to test fire the rifle as ridiculous as it is, first it would be necessary to sign the rifle on to your certificate. RFDs have the facility to test fire enshrined in legislation but not individuals. As usual the law is ridiculously complex and unhelpful.

    Legally the OP cannot simply just loan his rifle to his oppo to use. One simple solution to this might be to have the rifle mentioned on both FACs or to get permission for both to shoot and it would then be covered by the estate rifle exemption.
    Last edited by 8x57; 20-07-2016 at 15:42.
    It's the calibre of the shooter that counts not the calibre of the rifle.

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