My gun on a friend's permission?

oxfordshirestalker

Well-Known Member
Hi all,

I regularly act as lamp man for a good friend on his permission, a local golf course. We both have HMRs but I've been trying a NV thing on mine. My question is this - if he leaves his rifle in the cabinet, can we legally take mine and use it on his permission without an issue?

I can can hear you saying "surely just ask for your own permission on the land" but I'm afraid the golfers aren't very willing to let multiple people have access! Could easily be a case of if they (landowner/police) don't know then nobody minds but I don't really like to go along with that, I'd rather everything was above board before o set out!

Thanks
 
If the Golf Club are ok with it no problem on the permission side of things, I'm not entirely sure that you can legally lend your friend your HMR to shoot with unless he has a vacant slot on his FAC, I might stand to be corrected on this by someone more knowledgeable e.g. BASC.
 
Hi all,
My question is this - if he leaves his rifle in the cabinet, can we legally take mine and use it on his permission without an issue?

Simple answer No. You will need permission to shoot and also the necessary condition on your certificate if it isn't an open certificate.

Were you thinking of using the estate rifle exemption? It would not apply under the circumstances you describe.
 
Last edited:
I have permissions on lots of golf clubs, i regulary take my mate with me and let him shoot, he has an open certificate, i always notify the police when i am on golf courses, i just ask my mate to give them his details, never had any problems.
 
I have permissions on lots of golf clubs, i regulary take my mate with me and let him shoot, he has an open certificate, i always notify the police when i am on golf courses, i just ask my mate to give them his details, never had any problems.

But does he have permission to shoot over these clubs other from simply you? Are you considered to be the occupier of the land or the person with the shooting rights?
 
Last edited:
I agree with others, right now the short answer is no.

You were granted your ticket to purchase a rifle under certain conditions, so as long as you are not in breach of your licence conditions then you are ok. These will probably be something like "XYZ animal and AOLQ, where you have permission to shoot and where the land has been cleared for that caliber by the chief of police for that county", assuming you are on a closed ticket.

If your friend is the holder of the shooting rights and therefore is in a position to legally grant you permission to shoot on that land, and you have it in writing from him, then that covers the first bit - you have permission from someone who is in a position to give it to you.

If he is a shooting tenant only and his agreement with the land owner doesnt cover him authorising others to shoot then he cannot give you the ok and you cannot shoot there.

Assuming he can give you permission the second thing would be confirming with the police that the land is cleared for that caliber. If your mate has an HMR but an open ticket then he can shoot on that land legally as long as he has permission, but that doesnt mean the police would allow you to on a closed ticket so its worth checking with them before taking your rifle out. There is a Deer and Vermin control form on most police websites that you can submit to them to check the land is cleared and demonstrate you have permission to shoot. Hampshires is attached.
 

Attachments

  • Destruction of Vermin Deer Application Form.pdf
    19 KB · Views: 47
Simple answer No. You will need permission to shoot and also the necessary condition on your certificate if it isn't an open certificate.

Were you thinking of using the estate rifle exemption? It would not apply under the circumstances you describe.

This is the legal, correct answer.
 
Hi all,

I regularly act as lamp man for a good friend on his permission, a local golf course.
We both have HMRs but I've been trying a NV thing on mine. My question is this - if he leaves his rifle in the cabinet, can we legally take mine and use it on his permission without an issue?

I can can hear you saying "surely just ask for your own permission on the land" but I'm afraid the golfers aren't very willing to let multiple people have access! Could easily be a case of if they (landowner/police) don't know then nobody minds but I don't really like to go along with that, I'd rather everything was above board before o set out!

Thanks


Does anyone actually read the questions or do they just start jumping in regardless.

He didn't ask if he could use his rifle on someone else's ground.
He asked if his mate could use his rifle on ground his mate already has permission on.
The authority to shoot on the ground and the authority to use a specific firearm are not linked (unless the golf course has somehow gone to the extent of listing what firearm he can and can't use which is extremely unlikely!)

OP is a lamp man
His mate has permission on a golf course, (assume it is either cleared for HMR already or Mate has an open FAC, regardless the same answer)
OP has an HMR
His mate has an HMR (NV)

Can his mate use OP's HMR (NV) in his presence? Yes of course he can! This is the only relevant question
Can his mate use a rifle on ground he has permission to use a rifle on? Yes, of course he can.
Can OP use his rifle on Mate's ground? No, not without consent from owner of land or unless he has rights to bring shooting guests onto his land.
Can Mate use OP's rifle on his land without OP being there? No of course not

None of this is relevant to Sec 16 of the Firearms Act which is entirely focused on Exemption from holding an FAC and borrowing a rifle to shoot without FAC.
Neither is it "Estate Rifle" clause as the shooter is the permission owner but not the rifle owner

Think you are really trying to make this harder than it seems

Consider this.
I want a .243 but would like to shoot it first before buying
I find one and ask seller to attend a piece of ground I have permission to shoot on for the purposes of evaluating said rifle. (this could be a range or just open ground)
I have an open FAC/Ground is cleared for .243 and up, actually doesn't make any difference if I have a slot for .243 or not, I have a valid FAC.
Seller has FAC listing said rifle and is in my presence at all times.

can I shoot his rifle on my ground?
Yes of course I can!

You either have permission to shoot on that ground or you don't (rarely is calibre/specific rifle detailed)
You either have permission to hold a rifle or you don't
You either have an FAC or you don't

all these combined in the scenario above are perfectly legal
The authority and good reason to be on that land with your rifle are clear.
 
Last edited:
Brewsher you are not absolutely and technically correct.

The basic fact of law is that the firearms act requires the shooter to have a FAC covering the firearm that they will be shooting or that they are exempted from requiring a FAC by virtue of one of the many exemptions contained within the firearms acts. The shooter must also have the necessary permission from the occupier of the land or the person who posses the shooting rights and appropriate conditions on their certificate.

I like your scenario about the .243 rifle but to absolutely correct in law in order to test fire the rifle as ridiculous as it is, first it would be necessary to sign the rifle on to your certificate. RFDs have the facility to test fire enshrined in legislation but not individuals. As usual the law is ridiculously complex and unhelpful.

Legally the OP cannot simply just loan his rifle to his oppo to use. One simple solution to this might be to have the rifle mentioned on both FACs or to get permission for both to shoot and it would then be covered by the estate rifle exemption.
 
Last edited:
I like your scenario about the .243 rifle but to be absolutely correct in law in order to test fire the rifle as ridiculous as it is, first it would be necessary to sign the rifle on to your certificate.
RFDs have the facility to test fire enshrined in legislation but not individuals. As usual the law is ridiculously complex and unhelpful.

So if read that correctly you are you saying that in the .243 scenario I gave that the owner can loan his rifle to someone without an FAC on his own ground to shoot (under Sec 16 exemption)
but can't loan his rifle to an FAC holder on their (the "loanee's") ground?
Because that is not the case.

There are several scenarios where firearms can be used in the presence of the owner and FAC holder by other FAC holders

RFD's have the facility to sign firearms onto and off their register permanently or temporarily, with that "holding" comes the right to possess and by default the right to fire but only in the course of their business.
Using a firearm for personal use that is held under RFD certification is an offence. (however it would be very hard to prove what is "test firing" for business purposes and what is "plinking" because he fancied seeing what the kick on a 416 Rigby was like!)
Your above scenario would also preclude any prospective buyer from firing a rifle on the property of a dealer/RFD as they would not have the RFD certification to cover that personally.
That is not the case either and several dealers advertise that prospective buyers can test their prospective rifle at their ranges.

RFD and Rifle manufactures produce promotional videos of well known shooters shooting their (the RFD's/Manufacturer's/Importer's) firearms in a variety of places.
The shooters in question do not own or have personal authority to possess those firearms.


Equally there is no restriction from a range member allowing another FAC holder (member or not dependant on the Range orders) from using their rifle at a range day, under supervision of the owner/holder.

Any more than there is a restriction to a non FAC holder shooting the same rifle under the same conditions on a range or on an estate under the "estate rifle" clause (which is their specifically to cover non FAC holders but by implication and in the absence of specification and exemption for FAC holders is not required.)
I have personally fired a former police (firearms) officer and RCO's firearm on a military range under his watchful eye. Now that is not proof that a law was not broken but this particular chap is a stickler for the rules, range and law.

The possession and authority to shoot on specific ground is still different.
The shooter needs to have authority to shoot on the property whether direct or indirect in the case of a lease holder be able to bring guests


I totally agree that there are specific exceptions of Sec 16, but they are there entirely for FAC holders loaning non FAC holders a rifle on ground/property the FAC holder has authority to shoot on.
But that doesn't apply here.
The OP is a holder and doesn't indicate desire to shoot.

if you can show me a specific line in the firearms act that says an FAC holder can not shoot another FAC holders rifle where the ground authority has been confirmed I will eat my words.



Yes , which is why we gave the answers we did !!

Well then I can only assume it must be down to a misunderstanding of the scenario and how it applies to the Firearms Act

Simple answer No. You will need permission to shoot and also the necessary condition on your certificate if it isn't an open certificate.

Were you thinking of using the estate rifle exemption? It would not apply under the circumstances you describe.

This is the legal, correct answer.

Your affirmation of a statement that the Op would need permission to shoot and questioning the use of the Estate Rifle clause (which is actually better referred to as "Sec 16 Exemptions") doesn't answer the question or provide the OP with any info

He did not detail he is looking to shoot
He has an FAC
Neither of which require him to have any conditions (for what I am not sure as that is not clear in the statement you replied to) or new authority applied to his FAC, nor does it bring any of Sec 16 into play


We seriously over think this sometimes
This is as bad as confusing good reason to own a particular cartridge/rifle with ability to shoot "non good reason" quarry. Shooting a crow with your 300wm deer rifle for example
or shooting Fox with a .22lr
or listening to FEOs when they say you can't have a .243 for fox only,
or can't have a 308 for deer and fox

or any other misinterpretation of a badly structured, poorly worded piece of law!
 
Crikey Bewsher it must have taken you hours to type up those ramblings. I'll admit to not reading it all properly because life is simply too short for that but from what I have read I will say the following; Some of what you wrote is correct, some is partially correct and some is just plain wrong.

Your initial reply was rude. You have accused others of not reading what the original poster wrote which wasn't the case yet you are guilty of exactly that charge yourself.
You have therefore earned yourself membership of a very exclusive club, in fact you are currently the sole member. That is my ignore club. Consider yourself member number 1.

End of conversation.
 
Last edited:
I Find this debate really interesting and have experience of it, unfortunately I dont believe you can do it, i will try and explain why, sticking to some basic rules.

If the shooter wants to use the lamp mans rifle it needs to be in a place where the lamp man has permission. In that scenario/location anyone can shoot the rifle under the rifle owners supervision. (Fac holder or not, i think we all know this, like taking a friend out to shoot some targets).

All responsibility for the said rifle sits with the rifle owner, at all times and in the OP question it states that lamp man has no agreement with the landowner - you cannot mix and match rifle ownership and land permission (once removed if you like) especially where land permission is personal/specifically to a named person.

The scenario:

Lamp man and permission holder go out with the lamp mans rifle on permission holders land to shoot. Something goes wrong (permission holder is shooting or lamp man shooting - its is almost irrelevant).

either the lamp man is in trouble becuase he is responsible for the rifle and is shooting on land where he has no permission (who ever pulls the trigger).

Or

technically the permission owner steps up under his permission over the land but is shooting a rifle which is not legally linked to him.

inthink the only way of doing it is to have the said rifle on permission owners FAC.

In practice i am sure people do stretch the rules (if i can shoot on this land then i can let a friend shoot on this land) but they really shouldnt do it.

happy to be corrected.
 
8x57 is entirely correct in his replies, just one of those things, if you don't have permission on that land, it means you AND your guns. By all means lend the gun to your mate but first endorse his ticket with your gun and send in the appropriate F11's. Are you going to do that, didn't think so!. As Boydy47 said, get your own permission slip for the ground. It makes sense and your argument to the club is you and your mate work as a team, professionally dealing with their vermin problem. Take the proactive approach and the club will be happy because they see you (both of you) are not cutting corners and sticking to the letter of the law. Getting permissions is ****ing hard but loosing them is a piece of ****.
 
Your initial reply was rude. You have accused others of not reading what the original poster wrote which wasn't the case yet you are guilty of exactly that charge yourself.

my initial reply was a question. If you chose to take it as rude then it is because you probably consider yourself in that camp of people who responded without fully reading the question.
anyone who replied about the lampman shooting on his mate's land also didn't read it.
he doesn't mention this
a fundamental part of the question.

you don't need to agree, life would be dull if we all agreed.
but please show me the line in any firearms law that says a fac holder can no shoot another fac holders firearm when ground permission has been proven.

i have shown numerous examples that prove otherwise.
i welcome anything that advances my understanding of firearms law
if I am wrong I will happily admit it...but only when shown why.

please show me which part of the firearms act applies here
 
The impled question from the OP is 'Can WE use his rifle?'and the answer is no. He could use it if permission could be conferred by the man with the authority to shoot on the land but that person in this instance has no right to possess a rifle that is not shown on his firearm certificate or has a condition allowing him to share it.. So 8x57 you are correct in my opinion.

F
 
My understanding of this is fairly simple. I am willing to be corrected, but it seems that the logic is as follows:

1. Person A has the authority to shoot an a bit of land.
2. He is allowed to do so using any rifle to which he has legal access.
3. Legal access can take several forms:
(a) The gun is on his FAC.
(b) The gun is not on person A's FAC, it is on person B's FAC, and person B is present and supervising the use of the gun.

There seem to be several common scenarios where this could happen:

1. As here, where an authorised pest controller uses a colleague's rifle, in the presence of the colleague.
2. Where a stalker/guide uses a client's rifle in the presence of the client.
3. Where the member or a private range uses a guest's rifle in the presence of the guest.
4. Where a prospective buyer test fires a prospective seller's rifle, in the presence of the seller, on the buyer's ground.
5. Where Bob has a go on Jim's fancy new Whang-Dang-Whaboom 5000 in the presence of Jim, on Bob's ground.

I would guess that most people on here will have fallen into at least 2 of those categories at some point. And I'm sure I could think of more.

Though the more I think about it, the less certain I become! The bit that I'm worrying about is whether B is allowed to carry the gun onto land where he does not have authority to shoot. So it all comes down to where B can legally take his gun (not shoot - just carry). I think. Maybe.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top