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Thread: BMH - problem asking dog to get into the boot

  1. #1

    BMH - problem asking dog to get into the boot

    I have a strange query which I realllllllly need help on.

    i know on this site we usually talk about in the field issues but here is an at home one which is beginning to become persistent so I need to nip it in the bud.

    Here are my 2 scenarios:

    1). I get dog from pen, dog goes on lead excited as hell as he knows he is going somewhere, dog asked to sit, boot opens, dog waits for command 'hup' and boom dog shoots into the boot. No problem.
    When leaving relatives dog lead out on lead, and same again boom! Dog flies into the boot. No problem.

    2). I go to pen, get dog. NO LEAD this time, dog asked to heel, dog flies off, boot opens, dog refuses blindly to respond to any command whatsoever. Will not heel. Will not sit. Will not recall. 45mins spent waiting or I go to open the front door so dog runs over as if to get in and then I can CALMLY put my hand on his collar and lead him over to the boot. Loads of praise and 'hup in', dog jumps into the boot. But dare I take my hand of his collar before then.
    Leaving relatives, dog gets mad excited as he hears my car keys jingle and knows he is going somewhere in the car. I walk out of relatives house with dog off lead, open boot, no front door to open as he knows it's not his house so cannot use this ruse like at my own home and then....boom! Off he shoots and will not respond in any way whatsoever. Wait for 25-45mins sometimes thinking what am I doing wrong.

    So the problem is not just recall. He just goes on complete rebellion. He is 10months old. When he activates this state he is not showing a fear response as in "I am not coming back as I am afraid". Instead he stands very tall and goes straight into hunt mode but even when I get on my hunkers and call he looks and kinda says "screw you, you can't catch me' and off he goes.

    I lead train him every day on a long line. He recalls, sits, stays and hunts up exactly as I command with loads of praise. I make this very fun for him, sometimes includes items he enjoys as time out for me and him. I reward his on the long line recall with the tiniest pieces of bacon lardons trying to phase out 'off the lead disobedience', and it works wonders, but on the long line only.

    so my queries to those who have been through this is:

    1. What has brought about this complete lack of obedience when off the long line?

    2. Has anyone been through this before and how did they remedy it?

    3. How do I reward good behaviour rather than focus on reprimanding bad behaviour, if I can't even get close to him when off the long line?

    4. Also this is a problem which the pup came to me with but I am having trouble phasing out? It seems the happier he is the more disobedience I receive when he is off the long line.

    i am thinking of this in a hill scenario, as in "stop! Do not follow that running pregnant ewe!". If his tracking is spot on but obedience is lacking he is in no fit state for the hill.

    keeping him always on the long line is my alternative for now but I need him to follow at my heel, steady to he shot, long line on and begin tracking. The Irish hill and wild woodland is so wild it will not suit to always have him on the longline. He must be able to follow me independently.

    Thanks guys, hope the post isn't too long.

    p.s. As with many BMHs this wee pup can be as bold as brass with some things and when deciding to hunt up disobediently (broke my heart a few times running off for 45mins during a stalk) but very nervous in other things especially in my presence. It is like he is afraid of me but I only ever try to boost his confidence and reward positive responses. He does get the odd 'noooooo' (said calmly) but the same as any other pup pushing the boundary.

    also I have trained some great springers for the gun, but this pup just isn't responding to the same reward mechanisms.
    Last edited by Ronan; 20-08-2016 at 14:00.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
    I have a strange query which I realllllllly need help on.

    i know on this site we usually talk about in the field issues but here is an at home one which is beginning to become persistent so I need to nip it in the bud.

    Here are my 2 scenarios:

    1). I get dog from pen, dog goes on lead excited as hell as he knows he is going somewhere, dog asked to sit, boot opens, dog waits for command 'hup' and boom dog shoots into the boot. No problem.
    When leaving relatives dog lead out on lead, and same again boom! Dog flies into the boot. No problem.

    2). I go to pen, get dog. NO LEAD this time, dog asked to heel, dog flies off, boot opens, dog refuses blindly to respond to any command whatsoever. Will not heel. Will not sit. Will not recall. 45mins spent waiting or I go to open the front door so dog runs over as if to get in and then I can CALMLY put my hand on his collar and lead him over to the boot. Loads of praise and 'hup in', dog jumps into the boot. But dare I take my hand of his collar before then.
    Leaving relatives, dog gets mad excited as he hears my car keys jingle and knows he is going somewhere in the car. I walk out of relatives house with dog off lead, open boot, no front door to open as he knows it's not his house so cannot use this ruse like at my own home and then....boom! Off he shoots and will not respond in any way whatsoever. Wait for 25-45mins sometimes thinking what am I doing wrong.

    So the problem is not just recall. He just goes on complete rebellion. He is 10months old. When he activates this state he is not showing a fear response as in "I am not coming back as I am afraid". Instead he stands very tall and goes straight into hunt mode but even when I get on my hunkers and call he looks and kinda says "screw you, you can't catch me' and off he goes.

    I lead train him every day on a long line. He recalls, sits, stays and hunts up exactly as I command with loads of praise. I make this very fun for him, sometimes includes items he enjoys as time out for me and him. I reward his on the long line recall with the tiniest pieces of bacon lardons trying to phase out 'off the lead disobedience', and it works wonders, but on the long line only.

    so my queries to those who have been through this is:

    1. What has brought about this complete lack of obedience when off the long line?

    2. Has anyone been through this before and how did they remedy it?

    3. How do I reward good behaviour rather than focus on reprimanding bad behaviour, if I can't even get close to him when off the long line?

    4. Also this is a problem which the pup came to me with but I am having trouble phasing out? It seems the happier he is the more disobedience I receive when he is off the long line.

    i am thinking of this in a hill scenario, as in "stop! Do not follow that running pregnant ewe!". If his tracking is spot on but obedience is lacking he is in no fit state for the hill.

    keeping him always on the long line is my alternative for now but I need him to follow at my heel, steady to he shot, long line on and begin tracking. The Irish hill and wild woodland is so wild it will not suit to always have him on the longline. He must be able to follow me independently.

    Thanks guys, hope the post isn't too long.

    p.s. As with many BMHs this wee pup can be as bold as brass with some things and when deciding to hunt up disobediently (broke my heart a few times running off for 45mins during a stalk) but very nervous in other things especially in my presence. It is like he is afraid of me but I only ever try to boost his confidence and reward positive responses. He does get the odd 'noooooo' (said calmly) but the same as any other pup pushing the boundary.

    also I have trained some great springers for the gun, but this pup just isn't responding to the same reward mechanisms.


    By the the way I know in a German context this wee dog would be superb and hunting up independently off the long line, bringing game to bay and barking til the shooter arrives. But can this character be changed to work in an Ireland/UK context with many of the wilder attributes being controlled?

  3. #3
    Ah ha you have finally realised to have a hound and not and not a lab!

    Do what I do pick dog up put in boot simples!
    Last edited by leec6.5; 20-08-2016 at 14:22.

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  4. #4
    feckin teenagers they just won't do as thier told and sulk and do what they want to do !!how many times have you heard that !
    back to basics one step at a time it eventually sinks in or the penny drops with age in a couple of months time you'll wonder what the fuss was about .

  5. #5
    Let him sit in the front and look out the window! Works with the Teckel!

  6. #6
    Put the lead on in the house. It's a pup and full of energy and excited after being in the house and doing little, just wanting to play. You maybe expecting to much of him to soon but I'm not very knowledgeable about how BMH are

  7. #7
    The dog obviously knows he's not on the lead and so being faster than you he can take the p.ss and boss you, I'd be taking the car to somewhere when I can control the situation better ie.. is more enclosed so you can catch and scruff him showing him he's not the boss and he must do as he's told "it's a battle you MUST win" other than that if no enclosed area available I'd use a very light "ie. Paracord" long line so hopefully the dog doesn't realise it's on a line until it comes to a sharp stop. The enclosed area would be best if you can find it
    I'm no expert but and maybe someone can come up with a better bit of advice but this is what I'd try.
    Whatever don't let the dog win as like said earlier up the posts teenage stage and trying it on
    Jimmy
    Next time you're walking down the street and see a homeless person go buy them a sandwich and a coffee, change of fate and it could be you one day !!!

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by goathunter1 View Post
    Let him sit in the front and look out the window! Works with the Teckel!
    Works with BMH as well.

  9. #9
    I tried the "I'm the boss" thing about two months ago and it put me almost a month back in training. He just responded way more nervously and it took weeks for him to come back on recall. Basically it was just like you guys said, got my hand on him, a good twist of the scruff and a "come back when your called!". Worst thing I could ever have done.

    Amazingly his hunting up alone is like clockwork and it bloody amazes me when I am in wild forest and bogland. How in god's name can a dog at 10 months old go off on the wildest of ground, with no visible point of reference, be spotted on a far away hill hunting away and then come back to me 45mins later. I am not messing, when I watch the German videos I think....my pup hunts like that at 10months old!

    I have tried the para chord, letting him trail about 30feet of it, but he knows when it's on and behaves so well like he is on a long line.

    the million dollar dog behaviour question is this:

    How do you stop a dog and make it comeback when it is off the lead, ten times faster than a human and highly independent? How do you reprimand a dog that does not stop or recall when reward works only when on a long line?

    I might bring in a new stimulus. A stop whistle. Blast means stop and a bacon Lardon. Then when he sees the stop whistle and a hand signal becomes a new game change it back to a voice command. But that will take a good fortnight. One to think about.

  10. #10
    If the dog won't come back , firstly don't chase him - he will think it's a game. I would walk away from from him giving your recall signal whilst walking. When he comes back, don't give him a row - it won't understand why it is getting a row for coming back.

    Try again with a long line and keep it in your hand, I certainly wouldn't be letting any dog that age hunt away in front of me. That maybe part of your problem, he's having too much fun away from you.

    When i'm training a dog, it has to learn the basics first and be very good at these before I move onto anything else

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