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Thread: time for change

  1. #1

    time for change

    1 tub of varget please.....aint got none
    1 tub of H4895 please......aint got none
    1 box 100g hornady spbt please.......aint got none
    1 box of 150g .308 spbt please ..........aint got none

    well im sure its like that everywhere,i am now on N140 for my 243 and 308.100g and 150g.
    just worked a batch up and WOW......... 1/2 inch at 100m with recipe out of book

    then i went to see my FLO and told him its very hard to get hold of my heads and i want to up my limit to 600 of each calibre.......

    "Not a problem fill the form in and give it to me on Monday,i blame the Americans"

    o but of course i said as i walked out of the police station with a very big grin.

  2. #2
    Like most other things - we tend to become more refined in our tastes when the market opens up and the selection is there.

    So when it grinds to a halt and our selection becomes more restricted - we take what's on offer just like our grandfathers had to do before science refined powder recipes and bullet components. We load-up and put a shot into the killing area of something to eat.
    THAT was the ultimate purpose to begin with it might be supposed - although war seems to accellerate an incentive to progress further and faster - even if it Is for the wrong reasons.

    In this case, you and your rifles have decided that they like the new combo. Great. That's a bonus. Good luck.
    Last edited by ecoman; 15-08-2010 at 09:23. Reason: Observed keying error - there might be more
    Opinions often differ according to unknown circumstances.

  3. #3
    Blaming the Americans again. I have about 8K assorted jacketed bullets already in stores, but after a comment like that, I think I'll work that up to 40K!

    I am surprised that a few of you don't pool your resources and order a Corbin bullet swaging outfit. Have a buy in fee and a component fee, and a schedule by which you can get together and make bullets. On a smaller scale, the 4D outfits are great and will set up in any beefy reloading press. You can make jacketed bullets in the comfort of your loading shed.

    If I was not a bullet caster I would certainly be doing that. Are the results as good as commercial bullets? They are as good a bullet as the effort you put into making them. Generally, as good or better. I shot 500M off hand comps with a lady who made her own bullets with a Corbin unit until Sierra picked her up. She shot her way to a national championship using them. It could be a good investment when split between a half dozen or so shooters.

    Just a thought...~Muir

  4. #4
    HHHMMnnn!, what price a powder mill?
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  5. #5
    I wonder how making your own expanding bullets would sit with the current licencing mess?

    Firstly bullets used on deer have to be designed to expand and I don't know how you'd prove you designed them to expand.

    If you could determine that they were designed to expand then you would run into problems with making expanding bullets as I'm sure most police forces would find some way to take exception to that.

    My limited understanding is that lead cast bullets don't meet the UK velocity requirements for deer, though I'm sure the would be great on targets, and I would also question if they would meet the "designed to expand" requirement in the eyes of the police.

    So, while making your own would be a great thing to try I suspect that here in the UK, depending on your police force area and their reading of the law and other stuff they make up in their spare time, you might find a number of problems unless you were only using them for target.

  6. #6
    Caorach, you make a real valid point with this one,................... but you shouldn't be making ammuntion for them!
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by caorach View Post
    I wonder how making your own expanding bullets would sit with the current licencing mess?

    Firstly bullets used on deer have to be designed to expand and I don't know how you'd prove you designed them to expand.

    If you could determine that they were designed to expand then you would run into problems with making expanding bullets as I'm sure most police forces would find some way to take exception to that.

    My limited understanding is that lead cast bullets don't meet the UK velocity requirements for deer, though I'm sure the would be great on targets, and I would also question if they would meet the "designed to expand" requirement in the eyes of the police.

    So, while making your own would be a great thing to try I suspect that here in the UK, depending on your police force area and their reading of the law and other stuff they make up in their spare time, you might find a number of problems unless you were only using them for target.
    I can't agree with much, if any of this,

    Firstly would not a cast bullet with a cavity that is then filled with lead not be designed to expand? just like the big manufacturers. Anyway a lead bullet merely by being lead will expand.

    How can some Police forces find a way to argue against such bullets.

    Cast bullets can be made to meet our laws.

    You are just caving in to a non existent problem, do you work for firearm licensing only you seem to be pretty good at putting up barriers where none exist The thing is they have to prove that the bullets are not suitable, you in all good faith are using what you believe to an expanding bullet, a cavity with a lead filling and a copper jacket, where is that wrong?

    John
    A clever man knows his strengths, a wise man knows his weaknesses

  8. #8
    Hmmm so the old HP lead Express bullets were never designed to expand. Express was the British term for a cartridge that used light for calibre bullets. So the 450 express instead of using the std 480 grain bullet (British std) used something in the 300 grain class. I would need to pull the books out to check the actual bullet weights and due to the wrist injury right now find that a difficult thing to do. In 303 the express loading was the 130 grain one butt hat was a jacketed loading as it came along much later than the Express label.

    If I remember correctly the .375 RNE 2 1.4" cartridge used a 245 grain bullet instead of the normal 270 grain one. This particular cartridge dating from 1908 was later adopted by Mauser as the 9.5x57mm and Mannlicher as the 9.5x56mm but was actually developed by Westley Richards in conjunction with Eley bros. I have a drawing of it some where kindly supplied to me by the late Peter Labbatt of the European Cartridge Collectors Association.

    as for velocity restrictions there are none in England, Wales or ireland it's the Scot who go in for such stupidity. Elsewhere you only have to meet the muzzle energy figures of 1700 ft lbs whcih i beleive can be achieved using cast and especially paper patched, or if you prefer paper jacketed , bullets.

    Please show me in the law where it states that a jacketed bullet is required? or where it states what the jacket must be made of?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by JAYB View Post
    Firstly would not a cast bullet with a cavity that is then filled with lead not be designed to expand? just like the big manufacturers. Anyway a lead bullet merely by being lead will expand.
    I know what you are saying but as an engineer I also know that something that looks like it might do the job is different from something for which you can present the maths to prove that it will do the job. Now I have absolutely no knowledge at all of the engineering processes necessary to ensure that a bullet deforms in a controlled manner but I am willing to bet that the maths is beyond the average shooter, and may in fact require computer modeling. I am also willing to bet that if the police, or another party with sufficient funds, wanted to demonstrate that your bullet was not designed to expand then they could produce an expert who was capable of doing the maths and who would wish to question you at length as to the results from your finite element analysis or whatever fancy name the necessary maths might take. I am also willing to bet that Nosler, or whoever, could present the maths to demonstrate that their bullet is designed to expand in a controlled manner.

    So John, I'm merely approaching this problem as an engineer. As an engineer I design solutions that work, and that can be proven to work, and from that perspective I see a problem with making your own bullets within the framework with which we must work here in the UK. Of course it is also the case that the police usually know less about the firearms law and ammo than we do and so they are unlikely to be any the wiser whether your bullet is made by Nostler or made in your back garden but it seemed not unreasonable to point out the obvious potential catch with making your own bullets. Ignorance is no defence in law as I understand it and I believe the law says something like "designed to expand in a controlled manner" so I don't think the police have to prove your bullets are not suitable, my reading of that is that the onus is on the "designer" to prove controlled expansion and I would guess that, if required, the likes of Nosler could do this or would have access to a suitably qualified man who could do it for them.

    At the minute I'm not caving in to anything as I just don't have the time to cast my own bullets, though I must confess that the process does have some appeal for me, but as I live in Northern Ireland and so shoot here and in Scotland my limited knowledge of lead cast bullets gives me cause to believe that they would not be deer legal for me. Making my own jacketed bullets might be a different matter however but no matter what the legal framework in terms of deer, and indeed my own, welfare I would need to be convinced of their terminal ballistics before I would think of using them on deer.

    So, please don't take offence at my views as they were expressed in good faith and are a product, as is the case with all of us, of my background.

  10. #10
    Wow. This bit of divergence got big!
    Caorach: Manufacturers like Corbin and 4D have many, many years of experience supplying jacket and core materials for all kinds of big game hunting. Like many bullet makers, they draw on experience to determine what works and sell components for swaging bullets according to usage. If you were to purchase the appropriate jacket material (thickness) and the proper core (pure lead) you could hardly go wrong following their guidelines.

    As to cast bullets, I am somewhat of an enthusiast but can offer no mathematics to prove cast bullets will expand on deer. I can draw on experience though, having shot all my deer but one with cast bullets over the last two decades+, and that includes with handguns. In a sentence: They work quite well and seem to have expansive qualities equal to jacketed bullets. Frankly, and I'm not trying to be snide, when a 30 caliber, 188 grain bullet leaves a 1.5" exit wound on a 130 pound mule deer I don't spend much time pondering it's expansive qualities: I expect it to expand, I guess. Drawing on past experiences of others supports the idea of lead bullets being expansive as that jacketed bullets are a relatively recent development in hunting projectiles. Before them, it was lead only. Even into the 1940's and 1950's cast bullets were still quite popular for deer in my country.

    The one other supportive evidence I have towards the suitability of lead bullets for hunting is that even my heat treated, lead alloy bullets have a Brinell hardness (scale) of just 31 Bhn. Copper jacketed bullets bullets have a Brinell hardness of about 90 Bhn. At best, these super hard bullets are just (roughly) one-third as hard a copper. If I drop one of these bullets from waist high to the hard floor or pavement it will dent. Plain,. untreated bullets have a Brinell hardness that varies from 9 Bhn to 21 Bhn depending on the alloy. To my reckoning, this would alleviate any fears of non expansion.

    As a final note, my comments were just regarding swaging copper jacketed bullets with my reference to casting only with regard to myself and my ability to use these bullets for hunting and target shooting. Sorry it veered down this path so far.~Muir

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