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Thread: MP's working for us! AOLQ. Now there's a novelty

  1. #1

    MP's working for us! AOLQ. Now there's a novelty

    I thought some of you might be interested in this:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It will be interesting to see what West Mercia Constabuary (Chris Himsworth) will come up with now to defend his decision not to use Any Other Lawful Quarry.

    ft
    Blindness to suffering is an inherent consequence of natural selection. Nature is neither kind nor cruel but fiercely indifferent.

  2. #2
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    Why do people enter into "correspondence" with their issuing authorities about FAC applications?
    Is this part of the normal process in England?... Sorry for asking but it's something I've never done and I don't understand why anyone would.

  3. #3
    Methinks you already know the answer to that one.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamus View Post
    Why do people enter into "correspondence" with their issuing authorities about FAC applications?
    Is this part of the normal process in England?... Sorry for asking but it's something I've never done and I don't understand why anyone would.
    Tamus, it's not an application for an FAC, but a variation. And as for entering into correspondence with them it's quite simple. In England, I don't know how it works north of the border, Chief Constables (through their Firearms Managers) can apply variations to the standard conditions which are applied to FAC's. When entered on your FAC they become law, to which there is no appeal, contrary to the EU Human Rights Act.

    The only way to fight this bureaucracy gone mad, is to create a paper chain which pins them down and to make them explain their decisions in the full glare of public scrutiny. When hopefully we can make their stupid decisions public and embarrass them into changing their ways and minds.

    There are several ones that are current favourites, mentoring and DSC1 minimum for deer being the most common. My personal bugbear is West Mercia's refusal to apply the ACPO 2002 guidelines on the issuance of conditions. Which at the moment leaves me unable to shoot crows and other vermin when carrying either of my two centrefire rifles. I could shoot a fox which is just about to take a newborn lamb, but cannot shoot a crow/rook/magpie etc. which is about to take the eyes out of a newborn lamb. Now my argument, and that of ACPO, is that a safe shot at a fox is more than likely to be a safe shot at another species, and I am trusted to make sure I shoot safely already.

    So 1/there is no public safety issue, 2/the conditions imposed are unenforcable (nobody monitors what I shoot, or with what), 3/Chief Constables are obliged in law to be reasonable when applying conditions (I do not think they are being reasonable), 4/they are in breach of the EU Human Rights Act.

    So unless you have a scathingly brilliant wheeze on how to coerce Constabularies south of the border into being reasonable (?), I will continue to harras them with correspondance Because I need to get their reasons in writing in case I decide to challege them in the courts, which i might well do

    ft
    Blindness to suffering is an inherent consequence of natural selection. Nature is neither kind nor cruel but fiercely indifferent.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by flytie View Post
    Tamus, it's not an application for an FAC, but a variation.
    So unless you have a scathingly brilliant wheeze on how to coerce Constabularies south of the border into being reasonable (?), I will continue to harras them with correspondance Because I need to get their reasons in writing in case I decide to challege them in the courts, which i might well do ft
    Thank you for your comprehensive explanation. And "OUCH" on the wheeze bit ..... Harass on sir.
    BTW I had a look, again, at my own cert... You had me worried about the not shooting crows and vermin. Mine does specify deer and vermin on my centrefires. I also have what appears to me to be the catch all....
    "(b) the shooting of vermin or in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife."
    plus... a few other bits and bobs which seems to pretty much let me do what I want to do wherever it is allowed for me to do it, including...
    "(d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans."

    Sorry to hear about others' problems.

  6. #6
    Tamus,

    Apologies for my glib remark earlier. I thought everyone on here would be familiar with the vagaries of English and Welsh police firearms departments. See the 'Legal Issues' section for the horror stories.

    Anyhows, I'd advise anyone to be careful with the condition you have partially quoted below - it looks like it is the general 'catch-all' condition applied to all FACs to cover the use of expanding ammo. It was rushed through post-Dunblaine legislation to cover expanding ammo for sporting etc. purposes and, as you say, unless you already have the firearms conditioned, (or 'open'), to allow such use, does not apply to the firearms themselves should anyone have more restrictive conditions already in place for their use - i.e specific quarry or others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamus View Post
    Mine does specify deer and vermin on my centrefires. I also have what appears to me to be the catch all....
    "(b) the shooting of vermin or in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife."
    plus... a few other bits and bobs which seems to pretty much let me do what I want to do wherever it is allowed for me to do it, including...
    "(d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans."

    Sorry to hear about others' problems.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamus View Post
    Thank you for your comprehensive explanation. And "OUCH" on the wheeze bit ..... Harass on sir.
    BTW I had a look, again, at my own cert... You had me worried about the not shooting crows and vermin. Mine does specify deer and vermin on my centrefires. I also have what appears to me to be the catch all....
    "(b) the shooting of vermin or in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife."
    plus... a few other bits and bobs which seems to pretty much let me do what I want to do wherever it is allowed for me to do it, including...
    "(d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans."

    Sorry to hear about others' problems.
    Tamus, I have deer and fox on my centrefires as well as humane dispatch. West Mercia say that they are perfectly happy to offer species specific conditions when asked, which they are patently not prepared to do. When i have asked various shooting organisations why they think West Mercia behave like this the only answer they can give me is, "because they can"!

    I did say if they wanted species specific conditions I would give them a list, it was quite a long list Which needless to say they ignored. It seems that the further North you go, the more common sense seems to prevail, apart from Cheshire.......obviously

    Sorry if i came across as a bit sharp with the "wheeze" thing, but I am more than a little peeved about all this stupidity and let my typing fingers get carried away. I do apologise

    ft
    Last edited by flytie; 14-08-2010 at 16:44. Reason: sprlling
    Blindness to suffering is an inherent consequence of natural selection. Nature is neither kind nor cruel but fiercely indifferent.

  8. #8
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    No offence taken, Flytie... but Cripes!!! Orion .... OK reread my FAC, again. I'm not going to quote all my conditions but they start with; and I paraphrase, the centrefires and their moderators and ammo, including expanding ammo, that my certificate relates too... shall be used for deer and vermin (including zeroing and vermin and roe only for my .223) on any land over which I have rightful permission to shoot.
    O.K. so far? .... Then comes the bit I partially quoted earlier, where Orion seems to imply I might only use the ammo but not the rifles... which would be bizarre but I accept that you may be correctly drawing attention to a potential pit fall. BTW Sorry to bore you and this is obviously mainly for Orion's benefit. I quote in full....

    6. The firearms and ammuntion including expanding ammuntion or missiles of such ammunition to which this certificate relates may also be used in connection with:

    (a) the lawful shooting of deer;
    (b) the shooting of vermin or in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife;
    (c) the humane killing of animals;
    (d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans.

    I think I was right when I said... they "pretty much let me do what I want to do wherever it is allowed for me to do it," but if you think I too have been a victim of their cunning, feel free to say so... please. Then maybe we can comment on common sense being a thing of lattitude

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamus View Post
    6. The firearms and ammuntion including expanding ammuntion or missiles of such ammunition to which this certificate relates may also be used in connection with:

    (a) the lawful shooting of deer;
    (b) the shooting of vermin or in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife;
    (c) the humane killing of animals;
    (d) the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans.

    I think I was right when I said... they "pretty much let me do what I want to do wherever it is allowed for me to do it," but if you think I too have been a victim of their cunning, feel free to say so... please. Then maybe we can comment on common sense being a thing of lattitude
    Yes, it's the 'standard' condition for expanding ammo as per the HO Guidance Appendix 3. Page 164. But in your case they've added the bit about firearms & ammunition at the beginning of it - so it's a bit of a mishmash.

    Where people can come unstuck is if they have a certain calibre rifle conditioned for, say, just foxes and then they read the clause (b) above 'vermin' & 'other wildlife', and might reasonably assume that they can shoot anything. To reitterate, it's a 'catch all' clause that was rushed through after the post-Dunblaine legislation had banned all expanding ammo. They then realised that it wasn't just pistols that used expanding ammo so had to quickly put into place a general condition that police forces could use to rubber stamp FACs with to allow continued use for sporting rifle purposes - and others as detailed in clauses a) to d).

    The highlighted part of your post above is the important thing to bare in mind - any conditions attached to the rifle will possibly have a bearing on the general expanding ammo condition, and might actually be contradictory to it - yours might also be given that the rifles are for deer & vermin but you make no mention of fox or 'other wildlife', (boar???? maybe?). Small point, but when you are under the microscope and being investigated for something any small anomaly will be used against you.

    If you need anything clarified it might be a good idea to get your firearms department to do it in writing.
    Last edited by Orion; 14-08-2010 at 17:43.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    If you need anything clarified it might be a good idea to get your firearms department to do it in writing.
    No.. I don't think I'll start correspondence with "them". It seems clear enough to me what my cert says. If "they" did care to try and prove otherwise I'd willingly meet them in court, at their invitation. But.. I do feel for Flytie and all the other honest folk that run into bureaucratic boneheads.

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