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Thread: sika

  1. #1

    sika

    hi first of id like to hi im a newbie so forgive me if im doing this wrong. I shoot quite a few deer a year. reds roe and sika. two questions me and my m8s cant get answeres for are.

    has anyone scientific proof or photo proof of hybridisation of reds and sika

    does anyone have a pic of multi point sika like ten or twelve points

    i have quite a few 8 point sika heads but have never seen more on one. we shoot land occupied by both red and sika and have never seen anything that looked even remotely suspicious. quite often hear about hybrids been everywhere but im not convinced. your thoughts please.
    Last edited by MARTYB; 24-10-2010 at 18:08.

  2. #2
    I was talking to a chap who was involved in some research into this, it was done by DNA testing all the deer that were shot. I believe it was in Argyle, but can't fully remember all the details.

    I was expressing the view that I might have a hybrid on my ground as there is a very big bodied stag around and he suggested that it was possible but unlikely.

    Anyhow, I can't remember the exact numbers but basically from several thousand deer shot in the Argyle area the number that turned out to be hybrids on DNA testing were in single figures. I was amazed as I always imagined it would have been a significant proportion. So, if your ground follows this trend then I'd guess you could go years without ever shooting a hybrid.

    Now, in saying that there are folks here in Ireland who claim to see and shoot a significant number of hybrids. I've no idea if they have DNA to support this but imagine they have good reason for saying this, however this situation is very different from that found in the Scottish study.

  3. #3
    If your talking about the Genotype of deer,that is thier genetic make up, then Hybridization is a mathematical fact for a good proportion of the Red Deer herd in Scotland. Only the island populations are genetically secure. If a successful mating of a Red and Sika took place in the late 1800s , which i am sure would have happened, then in time the Sika genetics, though extremely wattered down , would extend to an enormous number of the Red population. Its like the fact that we all share some genetic material with Otzie the Iceman , a 5000year old mummy found in a glacier in Italy. If you are referring to the Phenotype-what an animal looks like, then a hybrid is harder to recognise unless its a first or second generation cross. I have one at the moment and found one dead a few years ago. It is well recognised but the debate is how significant is it in the alteration of the Red Deer phenotype and what effects this may have on future populations. The fact is that just one successful mating could spread a gene through an entire population given enough time. Freaks apart a Sika Stag with greater than 8 points would have me suspicious of his genetic purity. Especially in Scotland. David

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by caorach View Post
    I was talking to a chap who was involved in some research into this, it was done by DNA testing all the deer that were shot. I believe it was in Argyle, but can't fully remember all the details.

    I was expressing the view that I might have a hybrid on my ground as there is a very big bodied stag around and he suggested that it was possible but unlikely.

    Anyhow, I can't remember the exact numbers but basically from several thousand deer shot in the Argyle area the number that turned out to be hybrids on DNA testing were in single figures. I was amazed as I always imagined it would have been a significant proportion. So, if your ground follows this trend then I'd guess you could go years without ever shooting a hybrid.

    Now, in saying that there are folks here in Ireland who claim to see and shoot a significant number of hybrids. I've no idea if they have DNA to support this but imagine they have good reason for saying this, however this situation is very different from that found in the Scottish study.
    Caorach - is correct. I was involved in a DNA testing scheme several years ago and again two seasons ago. The first time around out of several thousand deer tests there was not a single one hybrid. And again, the latter testing was negative as well. In a lifetime of deer stalking, I can only say I have ever seen one that was suspicious. Two seasons ago when this test was done, I was fortunate to shoot a gold medal 10 point Sika - some suggested it may have been a hybrid, but the resulting test proved otherwise.

  5. #5
    Hi, MARTYB - here is a picture of my gold medal Sika. It was tested and proved to be pure.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by monarch View Post
    Hi, MARTYB - here is a picture of my gold medal Sika. It was tested and proved to be pure.
    what a fantastic animal

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MARTYB View Post
    hi first of id like to hi im a newbie so forgive me if im doing this wrong. I shoot maybe 70 or 80 deer a year. reds roe and sika. two questions me and my m8s cant get answeres for are.

    has anyone scientific proof or photo proof of hybridisation of reds and sika

    does anyone have a pic of multi point sika like ten or twelve points

    i have maybe 30 large 8 point sika heads but have never seen more on one. we shoot land occupied by both red and sika and have never seen anything that looked even remotely suspicious. quite often hear about hybrids been everywhere but im not convinced. your thoughts please.
    Below is a picture of a Sika, a Red and a Hybrid which we shot in Co.Wicklow, Eire a few years ago.
    This is a perfect example of what may be expected but most Hybrids are what I call `dilutes` and may carry few of the Red genes due to the vastly larger Sika population.
    An F1 hybrid would appear different to shall we say a 10th generation carrier.
    A significant change takes place in the length of the nasal bone though, whilst that of a Nippon Nippon Sika may be around 7.8cm and a Red about 14cm , the Hybrid nosebone generally seems to be in the order of 10.5cm.
    These figures are factual and taken from specimens on my walls here.

    I have observed Sika and Reds during the rut for over 35 years and am of the opinion that if the Red population is managed correctly Hybridisation may not occur.
    However if Red Stags are absent a `horny` Sika will take over . Any self respecting Red stag would see an intruder off and win any possible assault due to his vastly greater body mass.
    HWH.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by monarch View Post
    Hi, MARTYB - here is a picture of my gold medal Sika. It was tested and proved to be pure.
    Well done. NOT from Scotland but some where i have a Pic of a 13 point Jap (not Manc) shot in Lanc's

  9. #9
    A Co.Wicklow curiosity shot by an Irish friend.
    HWH.


  10. #10
    some great replies guys. what constitutes a gold medal sika head?

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