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Thread: Deer conditions on FAC?

  1. #1

    Deer conditions on FAC?

    I have put in for a variation on my FAC and I am asking for a .243 and have asked for Deer to be added as a "Legal Quarry" on my conditions as well as "Fox and Any Other Lawful Quarry". I went out with my FEO on some land checks a few months or more back and we were talking about me wanting to add a .243 and Deer on my cerificate and he said he had several reservations.
    While doing the land checks he agreed that there were deer on the permissions (Which I had legal permission to shoot) and agreed to pass them for up to .270 even though I was only asking for them for .243 but that's not an issue, if anything it's more of an advantage! I have full written permission to shoot any deer that I choose to or feel that it would be necessary to if they were showing signs of injury or illness etc on all of my written permissions which total around 1500 acres! With that in mind, and of course the fact that I already have a FAC for a .17HMR, a .222 and a .22-250 (Which I am hoping is about to be changed to an Full Open Certificate) surely that warrants me having a .243 and I meet all the requirements for justifying the need for a .243 to shoot deer with?
    I fear that problem might come about with my application because of a couple of things my FEO has said! Firstly he has said that He would be reluctant to authorise a .243 for deer without a Deeer Management Plan in operation first which he said might be difficult because "someone else in the area" shoots deer already (Not on any of my permissions I might add). Further to that he said that I would have to go for my DSC1 before asking for a .243 for deer.
    Because of these possible drawbacks I would like to be "forearmed" with the correct legal information if my application gets refused.
    Firstly I am led to believe that as long as I am deemed to be a suitable character with no legal restrictions stopping me from holding a FAC (A point which is irrelevant as I am a current FAC holder) and I have "Sufficient Justification" for a .243 and permission to shoot the deer on (Most of) my permissions (Which I do have in writing which my FEO has seen and inspected) then there is no (Legal) reason why my application should be refused. I am led to believe that (At the present time) there is no legal requirement to have a DSC1 BEFORE a .243 for Deer can be authorised and nor can a condition be imposed saying that I must have a Deer Management Plan in operation as a reason for refusing my application. Further to that why should the fact that someone else in the area shoots deer (On land completely seperate to my permissions) bar me from shooting deer on my permissions. He also added that I should wait till I had a full Open FAC before making my application even though he agreed that I met all the criteria for having a Full Open FAC already and that I could offer proof of experience in the form of countless letters of reference from landowners whose land I shoot on (All of which state that I am extremely safety concious and have a good understanding of wildlife and conservation issues, and that I am a very competeny vermin controller, and of course that they have never had any concerns whatsoever over the safety of people or livestock while I have been shooting on their lands) my ammunition usage shows good Centrefire experience and I keep a "Shooters Log" which I have been keeping up to date (On my FEOs advice).

    My question that I would like advice on is - Can FEOs insist on these types of conditions on your FAC or are they just making the rules up as they go along to suit themselves as a form of "Sabre Rattling"?

    Any thoughts please?

  2. #2
    Your assumptions re the feo wanting stuff not required in law are correct,................. but, they are doing the issuing, & they can & will apply anything they like, IF YOU LET THEM..... speak to B.A.S.C. preferably Mike Eveleigh, if he's not submerged under the stuff in connection with the firearms review.
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchieBoy View Post
    My question that I would like advice on is - Can FEOs insist on these types of conditions on your FAC or are they just making the rules up as they go along to suit themselves as a form of "Sabre Rattling"?

    Any thoughts please?
    In a word 'yes' it's a power thing... Dsc1 is not a legal requirement although it is a good thing to have in your portfolio.
    Everytime I read a thread like this it becomes more and more apparent that some (not all) FEO's throw as many obstacles in the mix as they can.
    DSC1, mentoring, DMP's to name but a few and I'm sure it's to make you think "sod this, I'll stick to 22-250 for fox"
    ...anyone would think they owned the damn deer
    "It's halfway down the hill, directly below that tree next to a rock that looks like a bell-end"

    Good deals with ~ deako ~ sakowsm ~ dryan ~ 2734neil ~ mo ~ riggers ~ mmbeatle ~ seanct ~ an du ru fox

  4. #4
    I have to agree with you there Si, it does so often seem that FEOs go out of their way to put obstacles in your way!
    I also totally agree that the DSC1 is a very good thing to have, which is why I have already started a very "In Depth Study" in preperation for my DSC1 with DVDs and the Book (Deer Stalking Certificate DSC Level 1 Training Manual) that someone has very kindly passed on to me so that I can take (And hopefully pass) in Spring of Next Year. I would like to do it sooner but "Finances Dictate"!
    Thanks for your reply!

  5. #5
    you have ground, good reason and are a fac holder. The variation should be automatic and they do not have the right to ask you for a deer management plan or expect DSC1.

    Like has been said, get BASC to have a word.

  6. #6
    Can I suggest before going through BASC etc that you phone the Firearms Licensing Dept and as to speak to whoever is in charge. Ask them for written guidance on the recommendations that this erse (Scottish Borders for arse) of an FEO has suggested. I would be quietly confident that you may find a difference of opinion.

    In my own force I know from personal experience that the opinion some of the FEO's have differs greatly from that of the police personnel who work within the office.

    More of a concern is who in the licensing department is going to sit in judgement on whether or not your deer management proposal is even viable!!!!!

    The workload alone this would create is is incredible. I am guessing here but personally, I think he is being obstructive for perhaps personal reasons (like, anti??)

  7. #7
    feos do a job, if he says he advises doing L1 then do it. whats the big issue with that. if you wanted something bad enough you will do it.
    see i want to become a contractor, i have L1 doing L2 then get on the competent register do my handling course then first aid then register for my AW. all but the last are minimum requirements. i will do them all because i want to do it.
    the quicker the level one comes mandatory the better.
    are we better been at the same level , i believe yes.

    if you fight the feo he will make life bad for you..

  8. #8
    Different forces have different policies WRT to deer and CFs.
    EG Avon and Somerset stated the following to me.
    To acquire a deer calbire rifle I have to satisfy one of the following:
    1. DSC1
    2 Previous CF experience.
    3. Mentor to go with until he is satisfied that I am ok.

    This is A&S policy, not law.
    I would ask for your forces policy in writing rather than the FEOs verbal opinion.
    The deer management plan is bunk.

    As you have previous CF experience I think you have a good case to be issued with a 243.

    You can apply for a variation for a 243 and your force may refuse it. You can then appeal to crown court but then it depends who bottles out when you have to stump up cash, if your case is good as it seems then they may well bottle out. Employing barristers and solicitors is expensive.

    Perhaps ask to condition your 222 and 22-250 for Muntjac and CWD then shoot some and with that experience then ask for a 243?

  9. #9
    Those of us who care about what we do have no issues about level one, or any other real world qualifications, but we do tend to bridle easily when people who should know better, try to foist their own little agendas on us.
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  10. #10
    I understand what you are saying Jack but we do not have any CWD or Muntjac for miles around my part of Lancashire or I would have used that as an option ages ago mate!
    I do have ample experience with CF and my FEO did say that there was nothing stopping me from getting my FAC changed to an Open Certificate for CF with the experience and references I have. (My FAC is already Open for RF rifles)
    My main concern is the possible "conditions" that my FEO was talking about, i.e. A deer management Plan - which as has already been pointed out is virtually unworkable and/or having to have a DSC1 before a .243 for deer can be authorised - Surely this is just trying to hold you over a barrel with unreasonable conditions that are not even legal requirements!

    With reference to centalbeltstalker's post - I am not disputing that taking the DSC1 is extremely sound advice - I have never questioned that. What I am questioning is the right to use the DSC1 as a pre-set condition when it is not a legal requirement for the possession of a .243 for deer. Without wanting to cause any argument if centralbeltstalker had read my posts fully he would have seen that I have in fact taken it on my own back to start studying hard for my DSC1 with the DVDs and Manual that has been passed on to me. I would be expecting to take the DSC1 tests some time next spring as I most certainly see it as a very definite advantage to have that knowledge and to show that I understand it. The only reason that I am not sitting the DSC1 tests sooner is purely financial and I do not see any reason why that should be used against me in my application for a .243 for deer!

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