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Thread: Energy

  1. #1

    Energy

    Ok, so if we're not allowed to discuss the maximum range at which it is considered ethical to shoot deer, let's try it another way

    What is the MINIMUM energy (foot-pounds) that you would consider ethical to deliver a standard hunting bullet to a roe deer - chest/lung area. You will probably say "it depends on calibre" and you're probably right then, but then that would indicate there would be different ethical ranges for different calibres (be they small (not 'low' - just for you Brithunter - ha ha ha) medium, or large.

    Just to clarify, I believe my personal ethical range is 250 yards, not because I'm incapable of longer, just because it's where I feel 'stalking' finishes and is also the point where too many 'variables' start coming in to the equation.

  2. #2
    I'm not sure I would reduce these things to the terms of numbers, simply because of the number of factors that go in to the decision of whether to shoot or not.

    Having said that the Germans, as an example, the figure is 1000 Joules at 100M for small game like roe, whereas bigger game has a minimum of 2000 Joules of energy remaining at 100M.

    You might extrapolate those figures using your ballistics calculator and go from there.

    As a rough guide my 06 has more energy at 300 yards than a .243 does at the muzzle.

  3. #3
    I seem to remember reading that the US military did some testing when they were developing a new weapon/caliber and found that 70-90 flb would kill a human. I know we are not shooting poeple but this might give you an idea.

    steve

  4. #4
    There is a lot of guff talked about energy levels, bullet speeds etc, a lot of it enshrined in legislation. An arrow will kill a bison/ antelope/deer/moose if correctly placed, as will a well placed spear. Our forefathers found that black powder rifles could kill anything that walked the planet. Nowadays to shoot north of the border, you have to push bullets fast to reach the requirements of legislation, but does that mean a 45-70 BP round would not kill effectively? I think not.

    ft
    Blindness to suffering is an inherent consequence of natural selection. Nature is neither kind nor cruel but fiercely indifferent.

  5. #5
    You need sufficient energy to damage tissue such that you cause the animal to bleed out into its chest cavity, approximately. I suspect that this isn't going to be a lot but the bullet path will be complex and so there will be considerable variation in the requirement caused by hitting a rib, for example.

    Based on this I'd say that the minimum you need is enough to penetrate the skin and destroy tissue until the bullet would have passed through the heart while also breaking a rib if necessary. It would be tricky to put an exact figure on this without carrying out a large number of test firings but I suspect that the number would be surprisingly low.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKL View Post
    Ok, so if we're not allowed to discuss the maximum range at which it is considered ethical to shoot deer, let's try it another way

    What is the MINIMUM energy (foot-pounds) that you would consider ethical to deliver a standard hunting bullet to a roe deer - chest/lung area. You will probably say "it depends on calibre" and you're probably right then, but then that would indicate there would be different ethical ranges for different calibres (be they small (not 'low' - just for you Brithunter - ha ha ha) medium, or large.

    Just to clarify, I believe my personal ethical range is 250 yards, not because I'm incapable of longer, just because it's where I feel 'stalking' finishes and is also the point where too many 'variables' start coming in to the equation.
    This is a difficult question to answer as there are so many variables.

    EG.
    1.Caliber
    2.Skills of the shooter
    3. Wind and weather conditions
    4. Muzzle energy of rifle
    5. Down range energy

    The list is endless.

    This is worth looking at though when you make the decision



    Is this guy an excellent shot or foolish to attempt the shots.

    You decide.

    I dont see many of his targets running far.

    He can obviously shoot long range very well and has some excellent kills. But, how many does he miss and maim.

    I dont know the answer, but I have taken many kills at ranges over 250yds, I use handloads that have been put through a chrono, I have a custom made and proven drop chart, I have a rangefinder and wind meter to get good measurements and I use exbal ballistics software.

    I have not to date maimed anything that I have shot at at extended ranges and I never shoot if the conditions are not right.

    You decide.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PKL View Post
    let's try it another way
    It isn't another way.

    I think it's probably reasonable to say that most powder-burning rifles (deer-legal or otherwise) can produce the amount of energy necessary to kill a deer.

    The answer has to relate to the degree of certainty with which one can bring that energy to bear on the right part of the animal.

  8. #8
    I agree with Dalua. I'd have thought even a .243 would have enough energy to kill at 1000 yards plus. The trouble is at that range you'd stand next to no chance of hitting the animal where you should.

  9. #9
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    I think we need to trust people to know their limitations and shoot within them.



    The guys in the video above prove that shooting at 1000yds+ can be done effectively. Would I like to try it on deer with my .243..... absolutely not.

    1. My rifle wouldn't have the energy to make the kill at that range.
    2. I am not a good enough shot to hit the animal where I need to at that range.

    You cannot say that 100yds should be limit or 1000yds for that matter either.

    Hopefully people with a FAC are mature and sensible enough to make that decision.

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