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Thread: west merica police site.

  1. #1

    west merica police site.

    Firearm Certificate Conditions, other than the statutory conditions prescribed by the 1998 Firearms Rules, are a mechanism for the Chief Constable to regulate the behaviour of a certificate holder where necessary, on a case by case basis.
    The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group (FELWG) has issued advice that supports Chapter 13.14 & 13.22 of the Home Office guidance. It advised police forces to allow larger calibre rifles to be used to take lesser species i.e. where the primary reason for possession e.g. deer stalking was established, all lesser species such as foxes and pests could to be shot. This condition is expressed as follows:
    The (rifle/sound moderator/firearms/ammunition) shall be used for shooting (Named Principal Quarry Species) and any other lawful quarry, on land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated, and for zeroing on ranges, over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.
    The West Midlands Region (West Mercia, Warwickshire, West Midlands and Staffordshire Police Forces) have legitimately, and unanimously, decided not to incorporate this new condition.
    Additionally, if this condition is introduced in the future, the granting of certificates bearing this condition is subject to the approval of the Firearms Licensing Manager, based on an individual assessment of the merits of each case and will not be issued, as a matter of course, upon request.

    just noticed this . Seems a bit sill to me .

  2. #2
    hi,

    which specific part does not appeal to you matt.
    can you explain why also.
    i ask only to clarify mate

    atb f.

  3. #3
    i think it is saying that if u have a rifle for stalking or other larger species they wont let u use its for other lawful quarry . foxes ect. Even though home office guidence is telling them they can do it . Or am i looking at thins wrong

  4. #4
    No Matt you are not wrong. ACPO & Home Office Guidance is to allow AOLQ, West Mercia have decided not to introduce it. I am awaiting a reply from the Home Office Minister, James Brokenshire MP, to my question asking him why he is funding the ACPO Firearms Committee if Constabularies are free to ignore their guidance? I have also asked him why if something is safe, humane and no danger to the public, why would you condition against it?

    I am eagerly awaiting his reply!

    ft
    Last edited by flytie; 24-11-2010 at 16:36. Reason: spelling
    Blindness to suffering is an inherent consequence of natural selection. Nature is neither kind nor cruel but fiercely indifferent.

  5. #5
    Have West Mercia, or any of the other West Midlands Region police forces, actually given a reason why they are choosing to ignore the ACPO advice?

    As the AOLQ condition could well save police time, and thereby public money, by reducing the need to keep on making variations to FACs for additional species, maybe they need to consider their position in these times of cuts in public spending?
    Last edited by Orion; 10-11-2010 at 22:52.

  6. #6
    Orion, I have had several replies, from varying individuals, but this is perhaps their most cogent response;
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I also have a repeat of this statement from the Home Office Minister, hence my question about the funding of ACPO Committee's if they are going to be ignored. They will not deviate from this line. Having taken legal advice, I am considering asking for Judicaial Review on this as I believe they are acting contrary to the Firearms Act's intentions, and are failing the "Wednesbury Reasonableness test".

    ft
    Blindness to suffering is an inherent consequence of natural selection. Nature is neither kind nor cruel but fiercely indifferent.

  7. #7
    I am moving back to West Mercia soon and have had a look at their website and noticed this. As an aside its hell of a hard to navigate anywhere on it!

    I have been thinking about this topic a bit and have been wondering ........... do we need to be allowed to shoot 'anything with anything' or is it more of a principle point? (either is totally fine)

    The 6.5 and .22-250 on my tickets are both conditioned for deer and foxing (any time) but the 30-06 (soon to be .308) is only for deer and foxes when stalking. I will be asking for the .308 to be allowed for foxes any time because if you dont ask then you dont get but i can see the restriction there really. If i was found out lamping with no other rifle in the car then i imagine they would look dimly on that but otherwise how would they ever prove that i was not stalking?

    And why would you want to shoot much else with such expensive bullets?

    Not an attack but i am wondering if there is a real need for it to be allowed or more of a want.

    ps i cannot believe that they are allowed to just disregard the guidance that their people has issued

  8. #8
    ft.

    I like the, "As for the particular condition being referred to, it is indicative that it is not a necessity for efficient shooting practices."

    What do you think they mean by that piece of double-dutch? Have BASC had any comment to make about the refusal of the Regional Group to adopt the condition following their meeting? Seems a bit strange as BASC on their website are still advising FAC holders to apply for the condition, and even to inform them if any problems are experienced! Downloadable from here: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/...F72349FD5C6B90

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Newcombe View Post

    I have been thinking about this topic a bit and have been wondering ........... do we need to be allowed to shoot 'anything with anything' or is it more of a principle point? (either is totally fine)
    I don't think it's either Dan. It really comes down to the police applying a bit of commonsense, (and also the HO Guidance in this case!).
    ............but the 30-06 (soon to be .308) is only for deer and foxes when stalking. I will be asking for the .308 to be allowed for foxes any time because if you dont ask then you dont get but i can see the restriction there really. If i was found out lamping with no other rifle in the car then i imagine they would look dimly on that but otherwise how would they ever prove that i was not stalking?
    But you shouldn't have to be put in that position in the first place. What is the objection of your current FLD to conditioning your 30-06 for deer, fox or vermin anyway? Why should they be making decisions on your behalf about how you wish to use your firearms? Are you a danger to public safety? Is it 'overkill', (just love that word!), that they object to? Have a read through the BASC Guidance document linked above and you'll see that they have no basis to continually try and heap unwarranted, (and largely unworkable), conditions onto experienced shooters.

    ps i cannot believe that they are allowed to just disregard the guidance that their people has issued
    It's not just the disregard of the HO Guidance when it suits them that gets me. It's also the total lack of any continuity in applying the law by the various police FLDs around the country - it really is a postcode lottery. How can one force justify ignoring the guidance and loading up an experienced shooters FAC with all kinds of restrictive conditions, and yet others, for example my own, are far more sensible and have just one simple condition covering all the firearms and ammunition on the FAC:

    "The firearms and ammunition, shall be used for shooting vermin and ground game/fox/deer and any other lawful quarry and for zeroing on ranges, or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot".

    This is for .22Rf, 22-250, 6.5, .308 and 12bore slug and leaves me to make the decision about whether a particular firearm is suitable or legal for any particular quarry species.

    The more that FAC holders accept uneccessarily restrictive conditions, the more control the issuing authorities exert over them - or has it got to the stage where experienced FAC holders are so unsure of themselves that they have to have their hands held and be told what they can and can't do in the field?

    BTW. It's mainly an affliction south of Hadrians wall. many Scottish forces don't apply anything like the conditions we see.
    Last edited by Orion; 11-11-2010 at 11:20.

  9. #9
    Orion, I have no idea what they mean! It makes no sense.

    I have asked Mike Eveleigh (BASC), on more than one occassion, for advice and he is baffled by them. At the time i recieved the letter from the Chief Constables Staff Officer, BASC head office had not recieved any contact from West Mercia and were bemused to have them claim that they had. In our last conversation Mike told me that they had effectively given up on West Mercia as a lost cause, as they had by then talked to Chris Himsworth the FLM, they had no way to influence them directly, and were instead concentrating their efforts on ACPO and the new Government.

    It was Mike that suggested i ask my MP to ask the Home Office minister for an explanation. I have had one non reply to a previous letter, so in the last missive i posted i asked the two questions i posted before; Why fund the ACPO firearms committee if their guidance is going to be ignored? And why condition against something if it is legal, safe, humane and no danger to the public? I am awaiting a reply.

    Dan, I asked for this particular condition, so i would not break the conditions imposed upon me, if i did, as i had been asked by two farmers, to shoot crows and magpies that were attacking their newborn lambs. Now I can legally shoot foxes (and deer) with both my 6.5 and my .308, at any time. But my point is that if I have a safe shot at a maurading fox (with a safe backstop), it is equally as safe to shoot a crow trying to peck the eyes out of a lamb. But not according to West Mercia Constabulary. They would rather condition individually for species that you can shoot, the fact that ACPO and the Home Office realise AOLQ would be both a time and money saving device is seemingly lost upon them.

    When i asked Mike Eveleigh of BASC why West Mercia Constabulary would take this unreasonable attitude his only answer was, "because they can". There is an argument to be made that because there is no right of appeal against conditions imposed by a Chief Constable, which are in effect a law, it is contrary to EU Human Rights Legislation.

    ft
    Blindness to suffering is an inherent consequence of natural selection. Nature is neither kind nor cruel but fiercely indifferent.

  10. #10
    I never bothered asking about the 30 cal because i was going to get a 6.5x55, maybe they would have let it through. Still going to ask them to put any legal quarry on my .308 though.

    I agree that you shouldnt be put in the situation, once you have the rifle you should be allowed to use it for whatever you want within the law!

    I wonder what their reasoning will be if i ask why they dont allow the any quarry stipulation.

    Does it also mean that if someone from an enlightened force comes to my permission lamping and shoots a fox with a .375 it is ok? (obviously if he has any quarry on his .375 slot)
    Last edited by Dan Newcombe; 11-11-2010 at 11:29.

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