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Thread: Native deer???

  1. #1

    Native deer???

    Just talking to Michelle this eve and she asked me what deer were native to Uk...what are the natural rules as deer being native? ...how long does a deer have to be here and breeding to be classed as native and what criteria does it have to fulfill?

  2. #2
    Truly native- since the last Ice age and the loss of the land bridge to the continent, roughly 10,000 years ago - so Roe and Red (though we've lost European Elk and Megaloceros, and all the native large predators like Bear, Wolf and Lynx on the way)

    Fallow and Hares are believed to be Roman introductions, Rabbits believed to be Norman ones
    Last edited by Labrat; 12-12-2010 at 20:35.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by chickenman View Post
    Just talking to Michelle this eve and she asked me what deer were native to Uk...what are the natural rules as deer being native? ...how long does a deer have to be here and breeding to be classed as native and what criteria does it have to fulfill?
    The only truly native deer to the UK are Roe deer (Capreolus capreolus), and Red deer (Cervus elaphus), Although Fallow deer (Dama dama) have existed in the UK for many thousands of years, it is debatable as to whether Fallow deer that exist in the British Isles are truly indigenous to this country.

    According to what is written, Fallow deer were effectively wiped out of the British Isles (I don't know why) and failed to re-colonise here before the end of the last ice age, and the land bridge between the British Isles and mainland Europe became sea. We are led to believe that all of the Fallow deer in the British Isles today are the results of re-introductions, initially by the Romans, and later by loads of other people!

    I cannot help on your other questions. Might be worth talking to someone like Dr. Rory Putman, or zoologists to find out the 'rules' for being classed as native.

    Regards,

    Mike
    (Jelen Deer Services) www.jelendeer.com

  4. #4
    Imagine if it was a person we were talking about; his great great great.................great grat grand dad came over from Rome in 375AD and we still cassed him as foreign!!

    Dave

  5. #5
    I agree with this, the fallow deer are probably not indigenous in the strictest sense of the word, but then not all today's reds and roe are the descendants of indigenous stock either, although there are obviously some that are descended from the original inhabitants of these islands, and this is more likely for red than roe.

    Although fallow are not indigenous I'm prepared to accept an animal that has been living wild in the UK for well over 1,000 years as effectively native and some of today's wild stock are probably descended from the original releases. G K Whitehead was of the opinion that fallow in the New Forest, Forest of Dean and Epping Forest had a good claim to be descended from original stock.
    Last edited by paul k; 12-12-2010 at 21:26.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by devilishdave View Post
    Imagine if it was a person we were talking about; his great great great.................great grat grand dad came over from Rome in 375AD and we still cassed him as foreign!!

    Dave
    Tis true Dave, his/her GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG Grandad would be an introduced species! And his decendants would be classed as one of the many, many, many species of Homo sapien living wild in the UK today! ................. Wouldn't it?? ............... Oh! I don't know, maybe I've already drunk too much!!!!!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by devilishdave View Post
    Imagine if it was a person we were talking about; his great great great.................great grat grand dad came over from Rome in 375AD and we still cassed him as foreign!!

    Dave
    And there's some villages I know where he'd still be classed as an incomer :wink:

    Saying that, theres some villages I know where anyone with five toes would probably be classed as an incomer as well

  8. #8
    DD SOME INCOMERS HAVE BEEN HERE FOR GENERATIONS AND STILL CLASS THEM SELVES AS PAKISTANYS iNDIANS OR JUST MUSLEMS LIVING IN BRITAIN. THAT IS UNLESS THEY ARE CLAIMING HAND OUT,S

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Labrat View Post
    And there's some villages I know where he'd still be classed as an incomer :wink:

    Saying that, theres some villages I know where anyone with five toes would probably be classed as an incomer as well
    When were you in my local

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  10. #10
    So, how many of you believe that Reds are pure stock then ? It certainly set me back to think when I realised that wapiti blood, introduced into some Southern deer parks had been inadvertently or 'accidentally' transferred up to the North by deer forest owners trying to improve on their antlers, so in that context it's a shame that possibly pure blood was in danger of being wiped out on such places as the Island of Rhum.

    Give it another twenty years or so and with the Sika spread, the hybridisation element will be there in force. They will probably gain faster access to deer fenced areas where Reds are denied as they are smaller - wily and determined. It's likely that at some future stage, pure blood Reds will be a thing of the past.

    Then the question of Roe. My understanding was that roe in various geographical areas had, in general, antler shapes particular to those areas. Why ? Have there possibly been introductions from the continent as experiments ?
    Opinions often differ according to unknown circumstances.

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