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To be honest this sort of thing gets my blood boiling!!!!!!!! millions of pounds are spent on so called regeneration at the expense of the deer population. It deprives deer of lowground winter forrage especialy if you take into account the last two winters. Even where fences are in place they are seldom deer proof so its a constant all year drain on the deer population.Its about time that deer were taken as a serious benefiet to the country. not only do they provide sustainable organic food. they provide income from stalking and the offshoot of that to hotels b&bs etc emloyment for stalkers , and attract tourism to the hills. What can be said about thousands of acres of scrubby trees. You cant walk thru them you cant eat them,it costs thousands to try and establish them.
 
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Its about time that deer were taken as a serious benefiet to the country. not only do they provide sustainable organic food.

Only this weekend was the UK reporting a surge in vsnison demands. And the shortfall of supply, from Scotland also. There were talks of venison still being shipped in from NZ.

DC
 
To be honest this sort of thing gets my blood boiling!!!!!!!! millions of pounds are spent on so called regeneration at the expense of the deer population. I t deprives deer of lowground winter forrage especialy if you take into account the last two winters. Even where fences are in place they are seldom deer proof so its a constant al year drain on the deer population.Its about time that deer were taken as a serious benefiet to the country. not only do they provide sustainable organic food. they provide income from stalking and the offsoot of that to hotels b&bs etc emloyment for stalkers , and attract tourism to the hills. What can be said about thousands of acres of scrubby trees. You cant walk thu them you cant eat them,it costs thousands to try and establish them.[/QUOTE]




Aghhhhhhhhh Paul but you dont see the broader picture for without those scrubby trees you would not enjoy wiping your arse on soft bog paper ,neither would you be able to blow your nose and have to revert back to a soden cloth hankercheif and you would not be getting your very important glossy shooting magazine every week and month or the newspaper to read in a morning or the shite MFI chipboard furniture to get your arse on and the fuel for your fossil burning power stations thats keeping you scotties warm, compare that to the priorities of making a few bob to certain individuals in the local economy and deer come w ell down the list of priorities mate.:lol:
 
Its not commercial forrestry im gripeing about,it is a good land use that provides employment and a usefull resource. Its the 'natural' regeneration stuff for so called enviromental benefiet ,that the green brigade want to turn back the clock to before the last ice age !!! They are trying to plant trees in places that have had no trees since the ice age and in my opinion are messing up the enviroment reather than enhancing it in these areas. Round me there are thousands of acres that have been put under these schemes which are only there to apease the green lobby. The politicians can say ' Look we have reaforrested a million or so acres of scotland' when in reality they have just created an artifical scrubland.
 
I would love to know where they get those from that fill such positions of authority. My faith in these organisations was shattered forever during a 'discussion' with a member of the DCS (Deer Commission for Scotland) regarding cull figures they had given me for Sika on our forestry. He was telling me about the estimated numbers and how the population explodes every year, what with Sika hinds all having twins..... :banghead:

I asked him to clarify what he had just said. He did. I had heard correctly. I suggested he was getting mixed up with the Roe possibly??? He said, 'Oh, am I?

I put the phone down...
 
@ jamross65 What they should do is give some of these cushy jobs to retired stalkers, shepherds, people who have had lifetimes of experience working IN the landscape and KNOW what they are talking about, rather than someone who was trained sitting on their arse behind a desk It would also make ammends to these folk for the crap wages that they have during their lifetimes work often ageing them prematurely.
 
15 years at Mar lodge with millions of pounds poured into the place not for commercial but for the public to enjoy. (MY ASS) and the wild life. After so many years and countless HUNDREDS OFthousands of deer shot and still a complete failure of the trees may be some one from government should look at were our money is really going. Mar lodge the play ground for the top men of the big organisations The defuncked DCS BDS BASC Have all had a play around that area and took money for the pleasure. With no concideration for the local people or its industry,s Why because they dont live there and care why would they.
 
Couldn't agree with you more - i was a ghillie at Mar Lodge years ago - it breaks my heart every time i go back there to see the state of the place - i could go on and on and on but 6pointer nailed it on the head here........
 


See post from 7/12/2009

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At Long Last


Shooting times December the 3rd. National Trust for Scotland has now admited their project to restore the Caledonian Forrest at Mar Lodge has not been successful. After spending £750,000 and culling more than 12,000 Red deer there are virtually no new tree's.
This was tax payers money spent by an organisation that took no input from the people on the ground. I guess they weren't university graduates so what would they know!
I think this is a bloody disgrace and the people who instigated this should be brought to account. This is not the only area that this has happened to and as far as I know the results are the same in the others.​
 
I would love to know where they get those from that fill such positions of authority. ..

I was an agri student alongside a few of today's top office bearers in both SNH and SGRPID. Frankly, it struck me that they really knew nothing then (although they had very cynical attitudes and thought they knew it all) They seem no less cynical and only a little more knowledgeable now.

But they have power... Which is what they seemed to want then and have now.
 
I would love to know where they get those from that fill such positions of authority. My faith in these organisations was shattered forever during a 'discussion' with a member of the DCS (Deer Commission for Scotland) regarding cull figures they had given me for Sika on our forestry. He was telling me about the estimated numbers and how the population explodes every year, what with Sika hinds all having twins..... :banghead:

I asked him to clarify what he had just said. He did. I had heard correctly. I suggested he was getting mixed up with the Roe possibly??? He said, 'Oh, am I?

I put the phone down...

Just about sums it up really for me. Trees were cut down by man, not the deer. More fencing less areas for the deer to wander and graze especially during the winter months, and with reds they are generally hefted to the area they were born so once you have wiped them out you have a barren area.
 
I visited one of the 'natural regen' sites with a group of deer enthusiasts. The people who spoke to us had the worst case of tunnel vision I had ever seen. By the end of the visit it was almost impossible to maintain a conversation with them. These urban folk get a degree in rural issues and a sniff at power/fame, they then f**k an entire ecosystem using public money and when the results fail to match their expectations they blame the last surviving red deer/ the hostility of locals or the lack of funds and move on to teaching that which they cannot practically do. No one will be held responsible for the natural and ecconomic wastage nor will anyone ever print how many Scots pines could have been established for the cost of their experiments. At £3 or less for a tree and a guard many acres could have started the process of regeneration during the time these morons have been ****ing into the wind.
 
Mr Cummings, I :tiphat: to you Sir, if only common sence would prevail :rolleyes: and the deer were treated as the wonderfull resorce they are
 
Right, that’s it, I’ve cracked!

The humble Scots pine and the posse of other native trees and shrubs are not worthless scrub. Our native woodland is the home of both Red and Roe and should be regenerated and planted at a rate 10 times greater than we see today. Once established, the woods will provide food, shelter and sport for generations. They will hold hefted stock plus allow hill deer a refuge in the worst weather. I reckon strategically placed native woodlands will allow Estates to retain sensible numbers of deer in future rather than loose them to neighbouring forestry and farmland or as a result of an imposed cull (habitat protection)

I agree that Mar should have tried fencing along with a complete cull of all deer within the fence, as this would have brought about an early success without the need for repetitive culling of marauding deer. Generally speaking, the danger with the “no fence” scenario is that the flush of seedlings that take advantage of the (previously well grazed) seedbed suffer high mortality when the marauders come along after the initial cull. The seedbed also deteriorates rapidly as ground vegetation re-colonises thus preventing more new seedlings from germinating successfully. You can end up with a relatively restricted area of poorly stocked woodland, a depleted deer herd and a load of angry neighbours…oh, and it takes ages.

Fence, cull, regenerate/plant, protect…..done….quality native woodland for the deer and sportsman to enjoy for generations.

Regards
 
It must have been hard for you to hold out as long as you did Scotspine!

We have had discussions about this before and you have some good arguments but I still think that far too much emphasis is put on to the regen of our forrests. Many many years ago the landscape WAS entirely different but we changed it, the weather changed it. This doesn't mean we have got to return it to what it was in the past and show no respect to the animals currently living there.
What has happened at Mar lodge was an abomination. It happened at other places also. The RSPB reserve formerly known as Forrest Lodge estate in Nethy Bridge was another area that hounded the deer out of the place all for the sake of regen and with one or 2 small pockets of recovery was it worth the slaughter - NO
And dont misunderstand me here I am not against tree's, but fencing should be the first choice rather than culling.
 
If the place had been fenced then what would all the chaps for the large organisation do with the time. No need for helicoptors quad drives and 30 man ambushes that were spoke about like a roman victory. All this and the millions of tax payers money would not have been possible. :rofl: The biggest fools are the governemt departments that listen to these clowns then qoute them as if they are all knowlagable :lol:
 
If this is the sort of tricks that N.T. are getting up to I think it's time that the Govt. looks to-ward money wasting ventures like this, not just for this site as I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg, all these trusts are allocated money each year and if it's not used up in that financial year it's cut back the next, perhaps they might have been better off using the money for local employment, more keepers, gillies and organised stalking, at least that way they would be getting money back into their coffers, don't get me wrong, I know that scots pine are very slow growing and are important to the ecoculture, the perfect, and main food supplies for red squirrels, crossbills etc. which then goes back through the food chain, pine martins, wild cats, and dare I mention it, nesting places for raptors.


There's been a dearth lack of scots pine for over 3 centuries, yes, we'd all like to see more pines but at what expense, is it a case of "fences" will be a blot on the on the landscape, or as I said. "If we don't spend it this year we won't get it next".

And if you want to know why some one from the Midlands is going on about Scotland , Ive got a foot on each side of The Wall, born in England of Scottish parents and brought up in the central belt in Fife before returning back to England.

When all the deer are gone and all the grasses are gone because the deer are not there to graze them and the bracken and rhododendrons take over and the soil becomes crap some one will say. "Lets get some deer back", carts before horses never works...callie
 
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Right, that’s it, I’ve cracked!

The humble Scots pine and the posse of other native trees and shrubs are not worthless scrub. Our native woodland is the home of both Red and Roe and should be regenerated and planted at a rate 10 times greater than we see today. Once established, the woods will provide food, shelter and sport for generations. They will hold hefted stock plus allow hill deer a refuge in the worst weather. I reckon strategically placed native woodlands will allow Estates to retain sensible numbers of deer in future rather than loose them to neighbouring forestry and farmland or as a result of an imposed cull (habitat protection)[
/SIZE]


I agree that Mar should have tried fencing along with a complete cull of all deer within the fence, as this would have brought about an early success without the need for repetitive culling of marauding deer. Generally speaking, the danger with the “no fence” scenario is that the flush of seedlings that take advantage of the (previously well grazed) seedbed suffer high mortality when the marauders come along after the initial cull. The seedbed also deteriorates rapidly as ground vegetation re-colonises thus preventing more new seedlings from germinating successfully. You can end up with a relatively restricted area of poorly stocked woodland, a depleted deer herd and a load of angry neighbours…oh, and it takes ages.

Fence, cull, regenerate/plant, protect…..done….quality native woodland for the deer and sportsman to enjoy for generations.

Regards


In the right place, i concede that regeneration has its place, what i object to is the sheer scale of these projects, that do not take into account the the needs of the existing population of red deer.The deer have no say in this, they just become enemy number one to be elimminated at all costs.I have attended many meetings wherethe enviromental bodies just want to see the red deer totaly removed.Scotland is the only place in the world where red deer are open ground herbivores. they are the apex herbivores in these areas that shape and engineer the landscape we see today. the point the tree lovers miss is that they adapted themselvels to this enviroment over a long period of time, since the last ice age in fact.Science has shown that the great calidonian forrest was mainly destroyed by the ice age(prooved by dating trees found in peat bogs in sutherland caithness etc), and not wholy by man.So it is only a whim of certain men to recreate a past based on their own preferences that drives this reaforrestation. They do not take into account that the open hill population is extremely sensitive.When you deprive them of lowground wintering areas,that are essential to their survival, albeit for short periods of severe weather, and by radicaly culling whole areas you drammaticaly reduce the gene pool.They are also under threat from the sika that will take over these reaforrested areas(look how succesfully they have spread from forrest to forrest.we are in serious danger of losing a unique annimal if this carries on without due consideration for their wellbeing.I believe that the open hill red deer should be considered as seperate species to lowland forrest deer and accorded the safeguards that are applied to other groups of animals that are considered under threat.
 
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