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Thread: Variation problems - please help!!!

  1. #1

    Variation problems - please help!!!

    2 weeks ago my FEO visited me. He is a very nice chap and I have always got on well with him.

    I already have a .270 and .22LR on my ticket and suitable land to shoot both of these on.

    I have applied for the following and reasons given

    .17hmr – Long range vermin shooting
    .243 – Shooting of smaller deer IE Muntjac, roe and foxes.
    .222 – Specifically set up for foxes, with the possibility of a NV set up if the pennies allow.

    I have just spoken to my FEO, despite him agreeing that this would all be OK when he visited, he claims the office has said different. He also said that the office considered my variation of more of a shopping list rather than what I had reason to need.

    He advised that I cannot have a .243 as I already have a deer calibre!!!!!!!! The reason I gave which is 100% true, I have in the past been asked not to use my .270 for smaller deer on a particular estate as they consider it to do more carcass damage and therefore less saleable meat. Which is a completely fair reason, in my book.

    I cannot have the .17hmr as I already have a .22LR, so used for the same thing!!!!!!!!!!! That is simply not the case, effective hunting range with .22lr is 80 yards at a push, generally a lot shorter. Whilst the .17HMR is capable under the right conditions of 2 or 3 times that!! I was also laughed at when I asked would I be able to use the .17HMR for foxes, his words were “Not a chance”

    They were Ok with the .222 as that is not a deer legal rifle!! I wasn’t going to argue that one, as we all know in the UK .222 is legal for muntjac and CWD, so technically is a deer legal rifle.

    I am not happy to say the least, my FEO is going to have a face to face discussion with the “lady in the office” tomorrow and will call me back at 2.00pm.

    Any advice that you guys and your wealth of knowledge can give before then I would greatly appreciate it.

    To top it all off my new cabinet was delivered today, which I only bought to store these new rifles, I may as well send it back now!!!



  2. #2
    Well it sounds in principal that your requests and application are in order. Now unfortunately you have to see it from there point of view and if they can squeeze one rifle into two jobs they will.

    .17hmr – Long range vermin shooting
    could the .17hms also shoot at close range though, what makes it different perhaps long range day use with high mag optic and the 22 for lamping close work, low mag optic?
    .243 – Shooting of smaller deer IE Muntjac, roe and foxes.
    could have said roe primarily, but possibility of other deer and fox opportunity while stalking
    .222 – Specifically set up for foxes, with the possibility of a NV set up if the pennies allow.

    ideally could have mentioned that the rifle will be set up for for night only use with moderator for use close to urban areas as well as open areas

    The .270 should be reserved for the large species of deer and possibly stalking in scotland? Remember the legal reservations in scotland for say a .243 is 100 gr bullet achieving 1750 ft/lb with a muzzle of 2450 for anything that is not roe.

    Good luck

  3. #3
    What I also meant to say was the .243 is ideal for medium size deer in England but for the Sika/reds bigger is most definately better so .270 which is tops.

    ps my .22's zero is at 40m. I'd imagine that a 17hmr would be 100m.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by paul at barony View Post
    What I also meant to say was the .243 is ideal for medium size deer in England but for the Sika/reds bigger is most definately better so .270 which is tops.

    ps my .22's zero is at 40m. I'd imagine that a 17hmr would be 100m.
    Hi Paul,

    Thanks for the response. I think that I gave more than enough reason for each calibre. I have taken note of what you have said, I am going to challenge their decision if they do not grant me on those grounds. I will ask for the partial refusal in writing, as I have learnt from SD you need to do to be able to challenge it afterwards.

    Anyone else got their opinion?

  5. #5
    Hi Ross,
    You are absolutely right to insist on a refusal in writing. The refusal should detail what their grounds for refusal are. Your application appears to be on pretty solid ground. Good luck.
    Best regards,

  6. #6
    Hi Marcus,

    Thanks for the confirmation. I was told they would call me at 2.00pm.

    Still no call, will wait until 3.00pm and call then.

    I will let you know how I get on.



  7. #7

    The only things I would add to the advice already given is to acquaint yourself fully with the relevant sections of the HO Guidance - especially the sections within Chapter 13, (example below) - also some of the BASC Guidance & Fact sheets may be pertinent to your situation and might be worth a read through.

    Good advice to ask for all their decisions in writing, even at this early stage. Are you a member of a shooting organisation? Some appear more willing than others to get involved in their members interest where firearms matters are concerned.

    Although you have given good reason in detail for each of the rifles, ('small deer' etc.), I'd advise trying to keep them as open as possible in any future listing of quarry - i.e .243 deer, fox, vermin; .222 deer, fox, vermin; etc. or even 'deer and any other lawful quarry' if you can. Certainly, IMHO, never, ever, ask for 'fox whilst stalking' - BASC strongly advise against accepting that one even if the FLD have it in mind.

    Finally, I think this section from the HO Guidance sums your situation up quite well;

    13.6 “Good reason” should be neither
    confined to need nor equated with desire.
    Most firearm certificate holders possess
    firearms for reasons of their profession,
    sport or recreation, and may properly wish
    to exercise discretion as to what types of
    firearms they choose for these purposes.

    Any smokescreen they throw up about 'already having a deer calibre rifle' can be easily countered with the answer you have already provided, although you could also throw in that you want a lighter, shorter, more suitable rifle for woodland stalking compared to your .270 which is good for longer range work. At one stage when working with deer and large mammals full time, I had 5 x .308 rifles on my ticket, and even now have 3 x deer calibre rifles on there, so, as others have already said, it's quite normal and causes no problems for many issuing forces.
    Last edited by Orion; 22-12-2010 at 16:23.

  8. #8

    Thanks for response.
    As well as 13.6 I also thought that this would be a good section to quote if needs be

    13.29 Suitable calibres for shooting deer range
    from .243 to .45-70. For the larger species of
    deer (Red, Sika and Fallow) .243 calibre is
    legal, but .270 and larger calibres are generally
    more suitable allowing a 130-150 grain bullet
    weight, a muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per
    second and a muzzle energy of 1,750 foot
    pounds. For the smaller deer species (Roe,
    Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer) .243
    calibres are optimal. See paragraph 13.32 for
    information about legislative requirements for
    the shooting of deer in Scotland, which are
    based on the performance of the ammunition
    not the calibre of the rifle.

    A good way of explaining why I have good reason to have the .243 as well as the .270.

    This afternoon I have spoken to my FEO, he read out the notes that he took at my visit and he confirmed that in his eyes I have "good reason" to require each and every rifle on my variation. He is taking this up later today and will give me their decision tomorrow

    Fingers, legs, eyes, bo#l$cks, the lot crossed!!!

    I will let you know what the come up with!!



  9. #9
    Carefull what you cross mate but good luck!

  10. #10


    To anyone who is interested.

    Just had a phone call from Nothants Police, they have agreed for me to have all the rifles that I applied for on my recent variation.

    The only 2 conditions they have said is:

    1. My FAC is up for renewal in November 2012, if I have not purchased the rifles by then, they will be removed from my FAC.
    2. The .222 is only permitted for fox control.
    Overall I am happy with the result, not too sure why they were dragging their heels in the first place really.

    I am not fast running out of ammo for my .270, so they have said they will aim to get my new FAC out before the end of next week.

    Lets hope they keep to their promise.



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