Snap Caps -A suitable penalty? :shock:

Eric the Red

Well-Known Member
I was on a shoot the other day - nothing remarkable about that. A member of the syndicate has a 'mature' (and pretty collectable) S/S 12G. He habitually uses snap caps in this gun - although they remain an enigma to me.:-|

As he was leaving the shoot, he couldn't find his snap caps and so fitted two spent cartridges. As he was putting his gun in his car, he blew a hole straight through the drivers headrest and left a 5in diameter 'abrasion' (His words!!) to the laminated windscreen and A pillar. The latter happened to be in line with two other members of the syndicate who were at the time wishing him HNY. I understand their wishes changed somewhat after the incident. There is little doubt that they were extremely lucky that the windscreen laminate held (just). Equally fortuitous was the fact that the weather was lousy and lunch had just been served and almost everyone was in the 'Lodge' - most of the time, we tend to congregate outside.

It transpires he put a live cartridge in by mistake and pulled the trigger as he was putting the gun in its slip to release the hammer pressure. I guess we should be grateful the gun was pointing into the car before he pulled the trigger........

Leaving aside the obvious questions and statements, what are people's views as to the most appropriate and constructive penalty/sanction for such an indiscretion?

Some might say that the undoubted embarrassment and shock might be enough (and the costs) - but there is a point here at syndicate level, where one occasionally has to deal with a low shot or whatever (hopefully not too many like this) and let's face it, this was a pretty basic mistake. It might be coming to the end of the season, but apathy that uses end of season as an excuse for not dealing with the issue is not my preferred approach. Thoughts please?
 
It might have been a basic mistake but it could have been a deadly one.
Surely the shoot captain should have issued a ban? or made the chap issue a public apology?
Never used snap caps but i have used spent cartridges...........cut in half.
basil.
 
There are two times when you should be pulling the trigger on any weapon
1. When it is pointing at something you want to shoot
2. When it is pointing in a safe direction

As to what happens to the gentleman in your syndicate, that's for them to decide.
Personally windscreen/door pillar that's coming a head height,there but by the grace of God someone was in big trouble.
 
What a silly boy:doh::doh: that could of cost a life, ban for life if i was the shoot captain.

A bit hash but true

ATB
Dave
 
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Most negligent discharges happen whilst unloading or loading.
Muzzle awareness is one of my 'pet hates' when training or witnessing. It can, and does happen which is why any weapon should be pointed in a safe direction at all times, but especially during unloading and loading!
Pointing in the air is not safe!
Point in a safe direction at a soft piece of ground is the best solution.
Your friends mistake is a timely reminder to everyone, and sadly, he should pay the price in some way.
He got lucky this time, but it could have been fatal!
Never point a gun at anyone, (whether it is unloaded or not!), and always point it in a suitable safe direction when unloading or loading!!
MS
 
Perhaps put the boot on the other foot. Ask him what he feels would be most appropriate. In his position I don't think I would want to return to the syndicate. He might choose to leave which would give everyone an easy out. Luck is hitting a very high bird, it should not play a part in basic safety.

Very sad situation, but one that has to be dealt with. I don't envy you the task.
 
M S is right why muzzel awareness is vital if putting his gun away he must have been holding it nearly horizontal in the car consequense does not bear thinking of. releaseing springs in a gun I believe makes very little differance to spring life so I am told the practice goes back to hammer gun days I belive.anyway it if you want to do it leave it till you have cleaned it and its going into the cabinet. on a shoot yesterday I quiatly told a gun off for carrying a gun loaded and level in both hands through a wood :scared:
 
I am with M. S. on muzzle awareness and pulling the trigger, it's just basic, what is drummed into us as young shots.

I am afraid I would not want to shoot with this chap, I would never feel safe, and I cannot imagine that anyone in your syndicate will feel safe with him around anymore.

Simon
 
We used to invite a friend along quite frequently to our shoots, and it was always a bit of a scare as a couple of us almost got nailed once or twice. Even with a few harsh words spoken on each occasion, it just seemed the chap didn't have the ability to 'stop and think' before taking aim:-|

Finally he almost took his own head off with his firearm, which stopped him from shooting deer.

When he almost nailed my buddy at a duck shoot (he literally had to dive out of the way), this sparked him to throw in the towel. He finally realised he was not safe to others, and has never shot since.

Stupid not to be able to think carefully in the first place, but admirable to realise stopping the participation in the sport is the best thing to do for the sake of others.
 
Having pondered this some more, I think you should have a meeting with the rest of the syndicate and let them decide as it could otherwise be their lives at risk based on your decision and if the unthinkable were ever to subsequently happen, you could face some difficult 'duty of care' issues!
Maybe a ballot among the other members?
The options could be;
1. Banned for ever!
2. Banned for rest of season.
This way he will have to respect the majority decision and will not necessarily know who has voted in which direction which could otherwise be awkward as syndicate members are often friends outside of the shooting circle as well.
Whether he gets a refund or not may depend upon your initial syndicate contracts.
Either way, he needs some disciplinary action taken, or else you have basically set his standards as 'acceptable'!!:eek:
Good Luck!
MS:-|
 
What a terrible position to be in, for both the gun and the syndicate.
He's obviously an experienced gun so there really is no excuse whatsoever for his mistake.
He should be encouraged to stay within the syndicate as they are acutely aware of his error and have the opportunity to rib him endlessly about it.
He should be 'advised' that it might be better for all concerned if he was to voluntarily ban himself for the rest of the season and that perhaps he request the presence of a mentor (one of the experienced shots from the beating line?) next year until such time that he can be 'approved' as safe again (he'll probably be the safest gun around forever now anyway!)
His approval might make a good Christmas present next year
 
Wow
Thank god for small mercies,no one has been hurt
The gun in question has put himself into a serious position which I'm sure no-one would like to be in
personally evicting or banning some one from a shoot because of a small incident such as this is harsh, but then depends on their previous track record of gun safety
I'm sure this fella will never make such a mistake again
if they did , then they deserve to feel the full monty of disgrace
I do feel however the person in question does owe the shoot a full explanation and an apology because of the incident

And the shoot captain or chairperson needs to formally warn the person about their conduct whilst on shoot ground and/or in shoot company,
Aswell as address gun safety to the rest of the shoot to just highlight the dangers
this was how ever done un-intentionally by the sounds of it and luckily no-one was hurt,
next week those caught up in it will still be talking about it and probably making a big thing of it also and in-time laughing about it
the guy involved will still hav horrors for years to come
I suppose it is a case of how much you regard shooting extremely low birds or pulling through the line as more or less dangerous than this
as the incident took place in a confined area whilst not actively being part of the shooting day as such
if it had happened on the blokes drive and not in the carpark would you be thinking along the same lines as you are now
best of luck with whatever choice of action is taken,
not one I would relish




 
in my eyes banning the chap will be pointless (unless this is not his 1st mistake), the mistake has already been made. i'm not trying to condone what the chap did in anyway or take away from the severity of it but what happened has happened. personaly if i were shoot captain i would take all the guns to one side at the begining of the next shoot acknowledge what has happened get the chap to acknowledge what has happened to the rest of the group and then re-go-over all aspects of gun saftey right down to the very basics especially highlighting things like barrels broken and empty when getting over fence's and guns to be slipped between drives ect. by banning he will never have the chance to redeme himself and will always be disgraced amoung his friends, but this way slowly but shurly he will be able to regain the trust of the syndicate.
 
in my eyes banning the chap will be pointless (unless this is not his 1st mistake), the mistake has already been made. i'm not trying to condone what the chap did in anyway or take away from the severity of it but what happened has happened. personaly if i were shoot captain i would take all the guns to one side at the begining of the next shoot acknowledge what has happened get the chap to acknowledge what has happened to the rest of the group and then re-go-over all aspects of gun saftey right down to the very basics especially highlighting things like barrels broken and empty when getting over fence's and guns to be slipped between drives ect. by banning he will never have the chance to redeme himself and will always be disgraced amoung his friends, but this way slowly but shurly he will be able to regain the trust of the syndicate.


I agree with Lampy...... "Let those who have not sinned cast the first stone" sorry Stone no offence haha .

It was a mistake, a potentially grave mistake. Chances are this gun is now going to more careful than any other member if he has any sense.

Maybe put him in charge of syndicate 'gun asfety' as his penance, clunk click every trip !
 
Wow
Thank god for small mercies,no one has been hurt
The gun in question has put himself into a serious position which I'm sure no-one would like to be in
personally evicting or banning some one from a shoot because of a small incident such as this is harsh, but then depends on their previous track record of gun safety
I'm sure this fella will never make such a mistake again
if they did , then they deserve to feel the full monty of disgrace
I do feel however the person in question does owe the shoot a full explanation and an apology because of the incident

And the shoot captain or chairperson needs to formally warn the person about their conduct whilst on shoot ground and/or in shoot company,
Aswell as address gun safety to the rest of the shoot to just highlight the dangers
this was how ever done un-intentionally by the sounds of it and luckily no-one was hurt,
next week those caught up in it will still be talking about it and probably making a big thing of it also and in-time laughing about it
the guy involved will still hav horrors for years to come
I suppose it is a case of how much you regard shooting extremely low birds or pulling through the line as more or less dangerous than this
as the incident took place in a confined area whilst not actively being part of the shooting day as such
if it had happened on the blokes drive and not in the carpark would you be thinking along the same lines as you are now
best of luck with whatever choice of action is taken,
not one I would relish


in my eyes banning the chap will be pointless (unless this is not his 1st mistake), the mistake has already been made. i'm not trying to condone what the chap did in anyway or take away from the severity of it but what happened has happened. personaly if i were shoot captain i would take all the guns to one side at the begining of the next shoot acknowledge what has happened get the chap to acknowledge what has happened to the rest of the group and then re-go-over all aspects of gun saftey right down to the very basics especially highlighting things like barrels broken and empty when getting over fence's and guns to be slipped between drives ect. by banning he will never have the chance to redeme himself and will always be disgraced amoung his friends, but this way slowly but shurly he will be able to regain the trust of the syndicate.

I agree with stone and Sir-Lamp-alot on this one. Earlier in the thread people were calling for a ban but what will that really achieve? Issuing a formal warning to and apology from the gun would work better and achieve more as im sure he'll never do it again and its the people shooting low birds who need watching more in my opinion over one extremely stupid mistake.

George
 
Incidentally, what sort of car was it!?

Probably a 'shooting brake'? :rolleyes:

He no doubt will have learnt from his mistake and it is hard to judge a situation without knowing all the facts or previous history.
As Flytie said, 'safety is drummed into us as young shots', and I believe this is where we have a huge 'void' in some parts of the shooting fraternity.
Probably the vast majority of us have grown up with guns in the countryside and were taught by our parents or relatives that guns demand respect! We cut our teeth on an old air rifle, moved on to a better one, followed by a .410 and then maybe a 16, 20 or even a 12 bore? Once we got the hang of that we then moved to the 'dark side' of FAC ownership and got a .22LR which was a quantom leap of power!:cool: I got my FAC and driving licence at 17 and couldn't believe how 'grown up' I suddenly felt. :rolleyes:

Then there are those that have only just discovered the sport at a later age. They may have had little or no training to get a shotgun certificate and sometimes a complete disregard as to its potential! They got one because it is fashionable and they have the money to do so and will then buy there way into a rather nice syndicate because they can. They then turn up in the Range Rover Vogue with the old English side-by side, hip flask full of finest cognac tucked in the pocket of the best set of tweeds that money can buy.
I'm sure you can picture the sort - 'all the gear, and no idea:eek:'!!!
Corporate game shooting day clients? I'm sure we've all seen them.
Thankfully, deer calibres are slightly harder to acquire which can only be a good thing in my mind.

I'm not suggesting that your syndicate member fits this mould, but from what you have said about him having a 'collectable' gun and his safety drills, I suspect he might?
MS:)
 
Issuing a formal warning to and apology from the gun would work better and achieve more as im sure he'll never do it again and its the people shooting low birds who need watching more in my opinion over one extremely stupid mistake.
George

George, now the OP states that two guys were in line of the discharge but were saved by the car interior! I find discharging a firearm in line with two people a little more concerning than shooting a low pheasant.

Simon
 
I think this man wants to get out of the habit of using caps ,if the interior of a vehicle saved someone from being killed or injured,the senario could have been very different,I would expect him to be banned, if the discharge was safe then a good talking to would be appropriate with all members involved.
 
Has anyone spoke to the guy and found out how he's feeling at the moment? Regardless of his shooting background hopefully he will feel like a complete knob and be pretty well ****ed off with himself to the point he doesn't feel fit to come back to the shoot. If so good for him and it will be a lesson he will never forget, he may also become the most safety concious person on the shoot and an asset.

On the other hand, if he can't see that there is an issue with what he's done then he doesn't deserve to come back (or hold a ticket).

I think we have all had lapses of reason at some points in our lives, learning from them and never doing the same thing again is the important bit. I've never done anything like this with a firearm, and every time I use one I carry out the correct drills. But with all things in life, with or without firearms, we cock up occassionaly. Judge the bloke fairly.

Just my 2p
Mel

PS. I used to use snap caps until I heard the horror stories then I chose to take the risk of broken firing pins when releasing the pins on to empty barrels. The firing pin is a cheap bit of kit.
 
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