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Thread: .257 Roberts, .260 Remington, .25-06

  1. #1

    .257 Roberts, .260 Remington, .25-06

    I have observed in recent posts what appears to be considerable interest in the .25-06 cartridge. I have absolutely no bone to pick with that cartridge, but I was wondering why the other two over-the-counter 'quarter-bores' - the .257 Roberts (6.3x57) and the .260 Remington (6.3x51) - seem to be getting so little consideration 'over there'. Seems to me, and forgive my ignorance if I'm missing something, that:

    1) With the cost of powder,
    2) The propensity of your FEOs to be ignorant of the realities of stalking firearms and ammunition, and
    3) The ranges most of you report that you take deer,

    that the .257 Roberts or .260 Remington would get at least some attention in the alternative to the .25-06.

    Don't get me wrong. I think the .25-06 is a fine cartridge, it just seems to be cost ineffective (and less politically 'correct') in light of "your" (the collective "your") expressed needs and constraints.

    I can appreciate that the .260 Remington might be a 'bad seller' carrying the reviled Remington name, (this is about the same silliness that keeps 'average' Americans from buying firearms chambered in the OUTSTANDING 8mm caliber just because it's "metric"). But the .257 Roberts (6.3x57) seems like a 'natural'. Less powder, no practical difference in external ballistics out to 300m, "friendlier" in the eyes of ignorant FEOs. What's not to like?

    I'm not trying to talk anyone "out of" what they want to use, nor "in to" using 'something else'. I'm just curious about the attitudes that might be driving what appears to me to be a 'trend', and thought I'd start a discussion to see if I could understand the thinking a bit better.

    For my two-pence-worth, I 'like' the .25 caliber "better" than the .243/6mm for everything but varmints, and yet the .243 seems to have a very substantial 'following' "over there".

    Just wondering....

    Regards,
    Paul

  2. #2
    A few basics here Paul.

    260rem (God's own deer round) is a 6.5mm, not a quarter bore.

    25/06 seems quite popular, but burns a lot more powder to achieve similar velocities to the 260rem in similar bullet weights.

    I don't doubt the 257 Roberts is excellent - all rounds on the x57 mauser case are. However, I do doubt there are more than a dozen boxes of factory ammo for it in the UK.

    Both the Bob and the 260 are killed by lack of decent factory ammo, both are strictly for handloaders.

    So the 257 slot is filled with the 25/06 and for most shooters, the 6.5 slot is filled by the Swede.

    The cranks on here like me who shoot 260's are pretty unrepresentative of the shooting public as a whole.
    Brian.

    Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you......

  3. #3
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    The 6.5-08 A square (AKA .260 rem) is probably just about the best balanced deer/general purpose cartridge for use in these sceptered isles and it would be recognised as such if all the others (especially the coyote shooters' choice, the .243win) weren't already so popular and well established.

    The .25-06 is an overbore which just irritates me for using so much powder to do so little extra compared to the Bob, great cartridge of the world that it is, apparently.

    "tuppence spent"

  4. #4
    the 25-06 rounds do look good though!
    Last edited by Offroad Gary; 08-01-2011 at 13:15. Reason: spelling like a ****

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Claret_Dabbler View Post
    A few basics here Paul.

    260rem (God's own deer round) is a 6.5mm, not a quarter bore.

    25/06 seems quite popular, but burns a lot more powder to achieve similar velocities to the 260rem in similar bullet weights.

    I don't doubt the 257 Roberts is excellent - all rounds on the x57 mauser case are. However, I do doubt there are more than a dozen boxes of factory ammo for it in the UK.

    Both the Bob and the 260 are killed by lack of decent factory ammo, both are strictly for handloaders.

    So the 257 slot is filled with the 25/06 and for most shooters, the 6.5 slot is filled by the Swede.

    The cranks on here like me who shoot 260's are pretty unrepresentative of the shooting public as a whole.
    Ahhhh forgive the correction but the calibre of the .260 Remington is actually 0.256" the calibre of the 25-06 is actually 0.246". Your talking bullet diameter once again. The 6.5x53R was known in Britian as the .256" Mannlicher before the European way of using bullet diameter was more widely adopted that is .

    Now Gitano the 25-06 is also the 25-06 Remington and it's as you have noted quite widely accepted and even stocked in some gunshops but you try finding .257 Roberts ammunition . Before Bremmer Arms closed Parker-Hale down to hide their illegal dealings they had set up a custom shop and they were supposed to be building me a .257 AI on a Springfield receiver. Lucky for me it all collasped before I had handed over any monies.

    Part of the problem in the UK with the .257 Roberts is that it requires a M98 action length and does not have the holy grail of a short action unlike the .260 Remington.

    The reason the .243 is soooooooooooooo popular has nothing to do with the cartridges performance but that it's seen as the Minimum legal cartridge for deer in the UK and the Police just love that word minimum. Some Police have never heard of the 6mm Remington and despite it's performance being virtually identical to the .243 Win it has a longer case and so MUST be more powerful in the eyes of the Police so is never mentioned .

    Now if .22 c/F was legal for all deer then the Police would be pushing the .22 Hornet as that's about the minimum in that line up. They have no care for humane dispatch only control and to that end I recall being told that I could not have a .303 Sporting rifle for deer stalking by Surrey as it was a military calibre and as such far too powerful.

    My answer was Oh never mind I have been offered a 7.7mm to which the FEO said Hmm have never heard of that one .......................... of course in metric 7.7x56R is .303 . Oh .308 was fine by the way .

    It seems here in the UK that cartridges are fashionable or not. At the moment the .270 Win is still unfashionable hence a lot of dealers have some used ones sitting on the shelves/racks at very reasonable prices. The 25-06 as I recall suddenly became fashionable about 12-15 years ago then sort of tailed off. I recall bruce Potts buying one but he didn't keep it that long as he found that it didn't perform the way he thought it should. Working off memory now but I don't recall what he replaced it with. At that time Bruce belonged to the same rifle & Pistol club so we shot together failry often. This was back about the time he was filming that video:-

    A year in the life of Roe Deer

    and to buy the equipment needed he sold quite a few of his guns and it took two years to film that.

  6. #6
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    [QUOTE=Brithunter;170213]Ahhhh forgive the correction but the calibre of the .260 Remington is actually 0.256" the calibre of the 25-06 is actually 0.246". Your talking bullet diameter once again. The 6.5x53R was known in Britian as the .256" Mannlicher before the European way of using bullet diameter was more widely adopted that is .
    [QUOTE]

    CD can stand his own corner, but it's Ok, the rest of us can read and he didn't mention the word calibre. In fact he used the word "round".

  7. #7
    I'm fairly sure that I've never actually seen a .257 Roberts on sale and in a gun rack in the U.K. nor do I remember seeing more than one .260 Remington for sale actually in the rack, though you do see the odd advertisment on occasion. .25-06 is probably the most popular of the three cartridges mentioned but most of us would be hard pressed to mention more than a couple of shooters who actually own one. As has been indicated British shooters for various reasons tend to restrict themselves or are restricted by availability to probably no more than about a dozen different cartridges.

  8. #8
    brithunter

    My 6th Edition of the Hornady reloading manual currently lists 136 different rifle calibres. I think it is very likely that if someone applies for one of the lesser well known or less commonly used calibres that the FEO will not have heard of it. In fact I wonder how many experts on here could actually name half of them.

    You have also made a very wide generalisation regarding .243 as the minimum legal deer calibre in the UK. It most certainly is not in Scotland as we have the luxury of opting for .22CF for Roe although I do apprecuiate that although as you stated UK, you are no doubt referring to legislation South of the Border and to cover ALL species.

    I do not agree with your reason as to why the .243 is sooooooooooo popular. A lot of people, including myself may simply be of the school of thought that, in actual fact a larger calibre is not NECESSARY to humanely kill all deer species in this country!

    I have shot enough deer with .22-250, .25-06, .270, .308, .243 (including AI versions) to realise that every single one of those I have listed (except .22CF obviously only on roe) is more than enough gun for humane kills. I have NEVER shot deer and thought 'wish I had larger/faster calibre'. I have changed simply for the sake of it. Experimentation playing a part as well.

    However, the facts are there that shows just how efficient the .243 is. As a simple comparison from my manuals, 3000fps from a 100grn .243 is a reasonable velocity to expect. At 200yds it will deliver 1437ftlbs energy to the target. A 6.5x55, one of the most popular calibres it seems on this site, when using a 129grn bullet appears to only muster up a maximum velocity of 2700fps at the muzzle. Therefore at 200yds it delivers 1528ftlbs energy. By my calculation that will be gain of 91ftlbs. WOW. And lets not worry about the .243 being slightly flatter in its trajectory because then we would have to give the 6.5 the thumbs up for bucking the wind better, however at up to 200yds (to some the recognised maximum reasonable stalking distance so often mentioned) it would not matter a jot.

    The .260 granted, is delivering slightly more energy due to its slightly faster muzzle velocity for same bullet weight. Will the deer notice....
    Last edited by jamross65; 08-01-2011 at 10:42.

  9. #9
    Let's see:-

    Quote Originally Posted by jamross65 View Post
    brithunter

    My 6th Edition of the Hornady reloading manual currently lists 136 different rifle calibres. I think it is very likely that if someone applies for one of the lesser well known or less commonly used calibres that the FEO will not have heard of it. In fact I wonder how many experts on here could actually name half of them.

    Ahhhh you calling cartridges calibres and there are not they are cartridges. Parker-Hale marked their barrels CAL .308 for instance not because it's correct but because they were aimed at the American market. the .308 Win is a .30 calibre . Oh yes and who claimed to be an expert?

    You have also made a very wide generalisation regarding minimum legal deer calibre in the UK. It most certainly is not in Scotland as we have the luxury of opting for .22CF for Roe although I do apprecuiate that although as you stated UK, you are no doubt referring to legislation South of the Border.


    In England and Wales now as you well know the .22 C/F can be used on CWD and Muntjac. They left Roe for some reason. As for the generalisation well read the posts on how many new shooters are restricted to .243 as their first rifle. Or when applying for a larget one are told not but you may have a .243. yes the Police like that word minimum. They also beleive it's their job to reduce the amount of legally held firearms. Note they never mention the illegal ones which they should be trying to reduce! Nope they go for us as the easy targets

    I do not agree with your reason as to why the .243 is sooooooooooo popular. A lot of people, including myself may simply be of the school of thought that, in actual fact a larger calibre is not NECESSARY to humanely kill all deer species in this country!

    I have shot enough deer with .22-250, .25-06, .270, .308, .243 (including AI versions) to realise that every single one of those I have listed (except .22CF obviously only on roe) is more than enough gun for humane kills. I have NEVER shot deer and thought 'wish I had larger/faster calibre'. I have changed simply for the sake of it. Experimentation playing a part as well.

    However, the facts are there that shows just how efficient the .243 is. As a simple comparison from my manuals, 3000fps from a 100grn .243 is a reasonable velocity to expect. At 200yds it will deliver 1437ftlbs energy to the target. A 6.5x55, one of the most popular calibres it would appear on this site, when using a 129grn bullet appears to only muster up a maximum velocity of 2700fps at the muzzle. Therefore at 200yds it delivers 1528ftlbs energy. By my calculation that will be gain of 91ftlbs. WOW. And lets not worry about the .243 being slightly flatter in its trajectory because then we would have to give the 6.5 the thumbs up for bucking the wind better, however at up to 200yds (to some the recognised maximum reasonable stalking distance so often mentioned) it would not matter a jot.

    The .260 granted, is delivering slightly more energy due to its slightly faster muzzle velocity for same bullet weight. Will the deer notice....

    Hmmm well try running the 6.5x55 in a modern rifle at equal pressures to the .260 Rem rather than handicapping it. Oh and by the way Hodgdons in #26 claim that 46.0 grns of H4350 with a 129 Grn bullet gives 2944fps and that's at the Swede's lower pressure rating. #26 does not have the .260 Rem in it. Also as you know 3000 fps with a 100 Grn bullet in the .243 is right at the top of it's pressure curve too. A lot fo factory ammo will be running at 2900 fps and not 3000 fps also you forget that quite a few .243's will not group the 100 grain bullets acceptably and as a 100 grain is the minimum accepted weight for ALL deer in Scotland that is a problem to quite a few stalkers. Now I happen to have both .243 Win and 6.5x55 but then I also have 6.5x53R and 6.5x54MS. I could also probably name a few cartridges that are not in the Hornady manual like the .303 Axite, .303 Magnum, .26 BSA Hi velocity, .280 Ross or .276 Dubiel for instance .

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Offroad Gary View Post
    the 25-05 rounds do look good though!
    I didn't want to say it first, but I agree...............Oh vanity

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