338 Win Mag

scrun63

Well-Known Member
Too larger calibre for stalking ? Anyone any experience ? If so what do you load and whats the meat damage like ? Also what species have you shot.

All advice greatfully received :eek::doh::rolleyes:

Cheers

Scrun
 
Simples, 'yes'...good for target shooting at extended distances perhaps. Good for african game or grizzly/elk, etc. but UK :british:deer species..:cuckoo::rofl:
 
The .33 cal was tried before but they made the mistake of making it an Express and used light for calibre 180 Grn bullets and it did not find favor.The depression helping put the nails into it's coffin.

You see BSA introduced a .33 Hi Velocity belted cartridge back in 1929 and the case was very similar to the later .338 Winchester. You might have had easier luck with the licensing Officer with the BSA .33 as it does not use the dreaded word "Magnum" :rolleyes: which in any case was and is the term for a large Wine vessel/bottle.

Now considering the cost of powder today and do we honestly believe it will come down in price?

One might consider the 9.3x62 as a better bet.
 
This is kind of a tough call. I consider the .338 Win Mag one of the 'best' cartridges for North America. Many people don't realize that the .338 WM shoots 'flatter' (and hits 'harder') than the 7mm RM. It's definitely "too much" for roe and smaller deer. It's not "too much" for sika, fallow and reds or boar. Also, I prefer the 180s, but they are more difficult to get to shoot straight in my .338. I mostly use Nosler 210s (because they shoot the straightest) and Hornady 220s. There's no need for anything heavier, but that doesn't prevent the macho types from thinking they "need" 250s and more.

As to species I've shot with my .338 Win Mag: sitka black-tail deer (Odocoileus hemionus sitkensis, 200 lb live weight average), mountain goat (Oreamnos americanus, 250 lb live weight), dall sheep (Ovis dalli dalli, live weight 250 lbs,) caribou (Ranginfer tarandus, live weight 450 lbs), black bear (Ursus americanus, live weight 200-300 lbs), grizzly bears (Ursus horribilis, live weight 300 lb), coastal brown bears (Ursus horribilis, live weight 800-1200 lbs). The .338 Win Mag does NOT cause "extra" meat damage. The worst meat "damage" I ever experienced in my life was using 175-grain round-nosed 7mm bullets.

As with all "magnum" cartridges, it doesn't NEED to be loaded to max pressures. That said, there are other .338 cartridges that use smaller cases - .338-'06, (pretty much the same as the .338x63 or 64 or 65), .338-08 (AKA .338 Federal). (I have a .338 Federal. It's a fine cartridge.) Any of those would probably allow one to use the cartridge on roe and smaller deer. HOWEVER, I find it hard to believe, based on what I read here at the SD, that it wouldn't be an "uphill battle" to get a .338 caliber cartridge "allowed" for stalking. Too much ignorance about firearms by the "constabulary" and too much ignorance by stalkers about the cartridge. At the same time, a 9.3 caliber cartridge, .366" in diameter, would be perfectly "OK". :cuckoo: Once labeled "magnum", "we" all KNOW that ANY cartridge is just devastatingly more powerful.

The .338 Win Mag is an excellent cartridge, especially among those cartridges with the "magnum" appellations. However, for both socio-political and practical reasons, I can't really see it as a viable cartridge for the British Isles.

Regards,
Paul
 
A friend of mine has a .338 win mag conditioned for deer in the U.K. but he had a bit of a job persauding the local constabulary to grant it, simply because they automatically assumed he wanted a .338 Lapua magnum which he didn't.
 
Ahhh Gitano,

I suggested the 9.3x62 as it's a "known" std cartridge not because it's better. Just the Plods are more likely to come across it ;). Also it will use a bit less powder and wit the prices now :cuckoo:.

I had forgotten about the .338 Federal :oops: probably a bit new for me :lol:.

Ahhh yes accordign the Plods there is only one .338 and that's .338 lapua. They covet it and I beleive that Lincs Police have a couple and that's frightening really they are incompetant enough with their 9mm spray an pray guns so God help us when they start playing with the .338'S :scared:
 
Scrun , the best person to speak to is Steve Bowers , specialist rifle services , he builds .338s or anything else you like from scratch . Steve will give you sencible advise on the calliber . If your after a deer/target round i would look at the 30.06 ACK IMP
 
Hello scrun

Not the same caliber i know but i use a 375 H+H Magnum for Roe Fallow + Red and whatever else i come across and the meat damage is no different to my .243 .270 .308 if anything its less you just get more knock down power they don't run !!!!!!!!!!!!
 
BH, I wasn't saying (although I could see it interpreted as such) that you thought it was "better". Rather that "they" ;) thought it was better because, as you say, they are more likely t come across it.

Y'know... Not that it's any of my business, but would it be worth talking to your politicians, via BASC or some such political organization, that FEOs should have "special training". It is a specialty job, seems that training, at least about basic nomenclature and cartridge construction would actually SAVE tax-payer's money in the long run, AND be "better" for the public as well.

Again, I'm not trying to but into something that's none of my business, it's just a thought along the same logical lines as those used to 'justify' the use of moderators.

Regards,
Paul
 
.338 and aircraft ..............

You might want to consider that ALL .338 loadings (Lapua, Win etc) are banned at MoD Certificated ranges. At Bisley, rumour has it that a calculation was made that a bullet at a certain angle could cause distress to the private jets landing at Farnborough. It seems more likely that the range of the .338 LM is just too much for the safety area which was of course laid out many years ago. That said, I had one which did sterling service on European boar, but was not noticeably more effective in Africa than my trusty 7mm Rem M. A 9.3 x 62 whilst very handy and indeed one is nestling in my cupboard after a 5 for five in France last weekend is fundamentally a shorter range cartridge, and you have to watch the MV to be legal in Scotland. I think if you are shooting the rifle in the UK, a 7mm RM might do the trick better and is generally under the Joules figure for the special zero requirement at Bisley.

The 7mm RM also seems to slug more of its energy into wild boar than most, the exit damage is generally small, which says something ...... it is also pretty well impervious to heavy wind on a West Coast estate, which was the reason I got one in the first place. You might also want to check what ammo is readily available in your area, gunsmiths are holding less amd less stock of 'exotics' as the recession bites. Bear also in mind that the humble .308 is a very accurate 'long' range cartridge .... and you can get ammo anywhere!
 
BH, I wasn't saying (although I could see it interpreted as such) that you thought it was "better". Rather that "they" ;) thought it was better because, as you say, they are more likely t come across it.

Y'know... Not that it's any of my business, but would it be worth talking to your politicians, via BASC or some such political organization, that FEOs should have "special training". It is a specialty job, seems that training, at least about basic nomenclature and cartridge construction would actually SAVE tax-payer's money in the long run, AND be "better" for the public as well.

Again, I'm not trying to but into something that's none of my business, it's just a thought along the same logical lines as those used to 'justify' the use of moderators.

Regards,
Paul

Ahhh Gitano,

The Police here have no intention of making things easier for anyone least of us the consumer. As they are government employees they feel above all that. Training while it sounds a good idea like their firearms training would be conducted in house and by their cronies and so called experts who know little to nothing about what they do so it would cost more money and achieve only that more costs to US the tax payer.

Having watched their so called trained Armed officers not being able to draw their service weapon and fire 6 shots in 30 seconds with the target a mere 21 feet away and actually hit the target was a sobbering experience. Most managed to fire a few shots wildley in the direction of the PPC ( Armed robber man sized target) and some actually hit it here and there.

Yet those same officers were patrolling the streets of London armed. This incident happened at Lippets Hill which at the time was the SO18 ( mets firearms units) training facility due to some armed officers being memebrs of the club I belonged to we got an invite to shoot against them.

The reason the .338 is banned is because the NRA have not got the bottle to tell the MOD to shove it. Added of course is that the council have allowed houses to be built into the safety zone. That was why the Running deer range had to be re-built and re- aligned to keep it within the smaller safety zone which the NRA didn't pay for either.

The NRA are soley interested in single shot target rifles and have only fairly recently even accepted that 5.56mm can be a useful target cartridge. Please bear in mind that one heck of a lot of our sporting cartridges also exceed the velocity restrictions at Bilsey. The .17 rem is banned due to this as is the 22-250. I had to sell my 22-250 after they changed the range certificate and was informed it was now banned from use. 243 winchester ................. 100 grain is ok by 70 grain and less weight bullets are not allowed.

Of course certain cronies can use almost what they like at Bilsey and .338 Lapua is fine for them to use :evil:.
 
Ahhh Gitano,

The Police here have no intention of making things easier for anyone least of us the consumer. As they are government employees they feel above all that. Training while it sounds a good idea like their firearms training would be conducted in house and by their cronies and so called experts who know little to nothing about what they do so it would cost more money and achieve only that more costs to US the tax payer.

Having watched their so called trained Armed officers not being able to draw their service weapon and fire 6 shots in 30 seconds with the target a mere 21 feet away and actually hit the target was a sobbering experience. Most managed to fire a few shots wildley in the direction of the PPC ( Armed robber man sized target) and some actually hit it here and there.

Yet those same officers were patrolling the streets of London armed. This incident happened at Lippets Hill which at the time was the SO18 ( mets firearms units) training facility due to some armed officers being memebrs of the club I belonged to we got an invite to shoot against them.

The reason the .338 is banned is because the NRA have not got the bottle to tell the MOD to shove it. Added of course is that the council have allowed houses to be built into the safety zone. That was why the Running deer range had to be re-built and re- aligned to keep it within the smaller safety zone which the NRA didn't pay for either.

The NRA are soley interested in single shot target rifles and have only fairly recently even accepted that 5.56mm can be a useful target cartridge. Please bear in mind that one heck of a lot of our sporting cartridges also exceed the velocity restrictions at Bilsey. The .17 rem is banned due to this as is the 22-250. I had to sell my 22-250 after they changed the range certificate and was informed it was now banned from use. 243 winchester ................. 100 grain is ok by 70 grain and less weight bullets are not allowed.

Of course certain cronies can use almost what they like at Bilsey and .338 Lapua is fine for them to use :evil:.

Brithunter much of what you have written above is incorrect, inaccurate or the information is woefully out of date. I don't have time to discuss the areas I disagree with at the moment because I am just on my way out to work. But just one quick example SO19 is the firearms unit of the met not SO18. The unit was formerly D11 and I have in the past had the pleasure of shooting with members of that unit.
 
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Brithunter much of what you have written above is incorrect, inaccurate or the information is woefully out of date. I don't have time to discuss the areas I disagree with at the moment because I am just on my way out to work. But just one quick example SO19 is the firearms unit of the met not SO18. The unit was formerly D11 and I have in the past had the pleasure of shooting with members of that unit.

Sorry about the number mix up yes your correct and I should have remembered it or checked on the lapel pin as the one from 1993 is so marked. Force Firearms Unit SO19 and beneath in the ribon is says Neville 1993. I have three pins from different years. Our invite came through the offices of Andrew Hamlet who was a member of SBRPC
the club I also belonged to. Some may recall the name as he wrote a series of articles that were published in Guns review on Russian small arms on which is was an authority, he was also quite an authority on Sound moderators and silencers and was working for a company that developed and manufactured them for police and military applications when he died. Andrew left the met police due to injuries received in the line of duty and the Met Police made thigns very difficult for him afterwards.

We also had members from the Sussex Police armed officers stationed at gatwick Airport on anti terroist duties. A couple of which were good shots sadly one cannot say the same for the others. I never got invited to shoot at Gatwick against them, it seems the committe thought I may upset them, cannot understand why :evil:! But anyway after to invites the Police members were told by their bosses that they must leave the club and all but one obeyed. He refused and in fact I used to stalk with him. Sussex Police made it very difficult for him with his personal FAC after that.

It seems that the members of SBRPC outshot the Police on their own range and is was deemed it was reducing their morale. Yes this was all over decade ago now but the Polcie are the Polcie and are not about to change theri ways as you well know. They cannot be wrong a point that was made in out front room by a senior memebr of the constabulary and in fact the exact phase used was :-

We don't make mistakes.

And you wonder why I have no time for them, no respect for them and absolutely no trust in them!

Accuracy international do their live fire testing on Bisley and yes that includes the .338 Lapua.
 
Kevin you really must move on, as someone once said “the past was another world”.
Yes police firearms training in most parts of the country only 10 years ago was absolutely appalling, and the standard of shooting displayed by many firearms officers was nothing short of disgraceful. Many of the so called firearms officers quite frankly should never have been allowed to even touch a firearm never mind be allowed on the streets, but even then there were exceptions and I have met and shot with some very competent shots at that time. But times have changed and nearly all the police forces have invested a great deal of time and money in raising standards to a very competent level. There are a couple of serving officers in my club who whilst previously members of the firearms team have moved on to other roles, both shoot at a very high standard. They both shoot much better than me and they both shoot in national squads.
I too have the medals from the Neville shoots of years ago, I received my invites via The Metropolitan Police Engineers. You never know we may have shot at the same time and might even recognise each other if we ever meet. While many of my trophies and standards medals shot for in what is now an eternity ago have been got rid of, I still have my master medals won at the Neville. They are quality medals struck off by the Royal Mint and I am quite proud of them.

With regard to Bisley – Yes the NRA have made some terrible decisions in the past but you are blaming them for things outside of their control. They do not own the land that is the danger area. They are effectively tenants of the M.O.D. They do not “have the balls to stand up to the M.O.D.” as you put it because they are not in a position of strength in which to argue the case. If you are using someone else’s property and benefiting from it, you can’t go dictating to them about how it should be used, you have to abide by their rules.
I actually think that in recent years the NRA have on occasions done a fairly decent job of sorting out this mess as regards MOD ranges and danger area footprints etc. You could well be right as regards Accuracy International continuing to use the ranges around Bisley, if so good luck to them. They are not shooting for fun, assessments of risk have been carried out, and no doubt the risks to the public have been deemed acceptable. After all that company is producing military equipment that will be used by our forces and other forces and it would be termed “in the exigencies of the service”.

Regarding your comments on.22-250 and .17hmr exceeding velocities permitted on range safety certificates, once again these were outside the controls of the clubs in the days when the army issued the range safety certificates. In fact in those days .17hmr wasn’t even being made so it hadn’t been considered that a rimfire round would produce such velocities. Again life has moved on, and now that a less prescriptive range safety doctorate is in place there are normally ways that these problems can be resolved. You still however have to abide by MOD rules and safety limitations when using their ranges, don’t forget that Bisley is actually a MOD range.
I am not a member of the NRA and never have been. Nor am I a police officer, I just feel that you have been unfair to both in your postings and that a lot of your comments are based on your own personal bad experiences of many years ago, but life must move on and we mustn’t dwell in the past.
Think positive Kevin, perhaps The Met will organise a modern equivalent of the Neville and we will meet up at Purfleet ranges sometime.
 
The point of my post .....

To return to the original question: the .338 Win Mag is a magnificient cartridge for use abroad covering a wide spectrum of species with excellent accuracy and range, without having devastating recoil (and I weigh in at 65kg when fit!). However, it remains restricted in the UK for range use. This is not going to change and was the reason for selling mine. As I indicated, there are others such as the 7mm RM which pretty well fill the requirement and are usefully under the 4,500 Joule requirement for a special zeroing proceedure at 200 metres before proceeding to longer ranges.

I do accept that the retention of the 3,280 ft/second rule is a bit irksome, but this can generally be worked around by careful selection of the bullet and load.

In 2007/08 as the above gentleman points out, civilian shooting on MoD Ranges and over MoD land was nearly banned, due mainly to health and safety concerns promoted by Civil Servants within their 'absolute laibility' culture. IMHO the NRA did sterling work in keeping the ranges open, working within a difficult framework to bring ancient rules into relative harmony with modern rifles and ammunition performance. In addition, members of the British Sporting Rifle Club worked hard to gain official recognition of their particular requirements at 100 metres. The resultant rules are easily accessed on the NRA web site. We can still shoot at up to 7,000 Joules, provided the correct proceedures for checking zero are carried out and of course if the FAC allows this. No small achievement! We can still hammer away with 9.3s and did not have to sell the .416 ....

.338 was unfortunately considered to be a special case for restriction due to both range over ground and in the air. If you have ever been a Range Officer at Bisley when the flights from/to Farnborough are directly overhead, well, 'they' do have a point ...... albeit the circumstances would have to be judged as extremely unlikely.

So, .338 is great, but forget about taking the beast to an MoD certified range!
 
Ahhh Purfleet is no more. The RSBP got it and it's a bird reserve. Yes I used to shoot there too. Oh yes the .17 Remington is a fast centre fire cartridge and has been about for many years. In the Neville I handicapped myself by not using the comp gun but in the spirt of things I shot with a Colt Official Police in 38/200 and a Colt Police Positive in 38 Spl. The Police Positive was buggier to shoot due to the tiny grip which moved with every shot. It sure was fun though :cool:. The pistol stable was the two colts which replaced a S&W 586 4" and a S&W Mod 19 6" then there was the bernadelli PO18 Compact 9mm and the Tanfoglio Ultra .41AE.

The local Police use our club range for training and although they train when we are not there the evidence of thier lack of precision shall we say is evident :(.

Now rogwad,

Actually I did have the RCO qualification and in fact we were the very first to do the course. In leaving that club and then moving it lapsed. We might try to get it back but will see on that. And have RCO's at Bisley on their open days several times.
 
Yes the .17 remington predates the .17hmr by a good few years but it is centrefire. The upper limit o velocity for rimfires was to prevent the use of .22 centrefire and such like on rimfire ranges. I don't know if you can remember a television special a good many years ago starring James Burke (The Burke Special ???). That programme if I remember correctly hinted that you could use an Armalite on a fairground shooting gallery such was the confusion over the difference between rimfire and centrefire.
 
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