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Thread: shooting groupes ?

  1. #1

    shooting groupes ?

    just made up a new load for my 25 cal. same old mind game 3bullets touching .
    one shot 1/2 inch to left .next time 3 touching one high .
    but never the same shot could be the 1st or 3rd or any .
    is this the rifle playing with my head or do other people suffer this.
    all shot at 100mts velocity spread is under 10ft sec.

    yours bob

  2. #2
    Bob

    Can you post a photo of the group?

    Rgds JCS

  3. #3
    In fairness, I can almost guarantee it's operator error! Unless you have your rifle firmly clamped to a rest/bench which does not allow the zero to wander between shots, it will be impossible to determine if it is the load or rifle or even sight picture (mirage)that is causing the error.

    I only concern myself with such things with my tactical target rifle but then I also use a mirage band over a very heavy match barrel.

    If you are using a hunting rifle you will be forever chasing an unobtainable zero unless you allow the barrel to fully cool between shots, can say (with absolute certainty) that your point of aim is the same between shots (down to mm) and that your input (as the biggest margin for error) has been pretty much removed from the equation.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    These are average groupings with Tikka T3 Light 6.5x55 @ 100m, I wouldn't even bother to get better as they all signify a perfectly acceptable shot in the field.

    On the other hand I'd be appalled if that's what I was doing with my target rifle....

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    Sako TRG-22 .308W, 3 rounds @ 100m

    But as I've already said, much heavier barrel, more solid support, minimal barrel heating issues and equipment to counter mirage etc. In other words, the correct tool for the job at hand.


    Paul
    Last edited by Vipa; 13-01-2011 at 09:34.

  4. #4
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	4193shot three groups all 4shots very much the same always with 1 stray

  5. #5
    Was this an indoor or outdoor range Bob?

  6. #6
    out doors off table with bipod and rear bag.bullets are115gr bergar vld 5" off lands

  7. #7
    Could have been a gust of wind? I am lucky in that I can zero & practice up to 100m indoors.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by bob257 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	4193shot three groups all 4shots very much the same always with 1 stray
    God, thats an awful group Bob, all the other handloaders in Britain shoot one hole groups every time, what are you doing wrong!

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever especially off a bipod. If you look at 90% of the photos of these fantastic groups people shoot, they are three shot groups (stop shooting before you mess it up?) and there are often extra holes explained as 'flyers' 'fouling shots' 'cold barrel' 'hot barrel' 'dog farted in the truck 50m away' etc.

    If you really want to pursue the elusive one hole group you will need to ditch the bipod for a proper bench pedestal and bags and probably use a different scope or reticule. Oh, and you will need another morgage to buy the powder and bullets.

    Best wishes,

    JC

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by JC275 View Post
    God, thats an awful group Bob, all the other handloaders in Britain shoot one hole groups every time, what are you doing wrong!

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever especially off a bipod. If you look at 90% of the photos of these fantastic groups people shoot, they are three shot groups (stop shooting before you mess it up?) and there are often extra holes explained as 'flyers' 'fouling shots' 'cold barrel' 'hot barrel' 'dog farted in the truck 50m away' etc.

    If you really want to pursue the elusive one hole group you will need to ditch the bipod for a proper bench pedestal and bags and probably use a different scope or reticule. Oh, and you will need another morgage to buy the powder and bullets.

    Best wishes,

    JC
    I completely agree with JC... especially the cost element of reducing group size

    If it makes you feel any better, I think we can safely remove your loads as a possible cause of your frustration. If you are shooting a few four round groups it is statistically highly unlikely that you would always take 3 good loads and one bad one from the ammo box, i.e. one time you may pick up 2 & 2, another 4 good & no bad etc... the chances of you always picking up one dodgy cartridge everytime are remote...... so.... we need to look at other factors...

    In reality there are hundreds of variables that will affect your group size but we can broadly bracket them into, Operator, Rifle & environmental. My first thoughts would be operator error, that's not a critiscism, just a fact of life! My second thought would be barrel heating (but I don't know how heavy a barrel you are using so this may or may not be relevant) and thirdly I would think wind. The other factor, which I have mentioned previously, and something which should not be overlooked, is mirage. It can play havoc with your sight picture and ability to get the cross hairs in the right place between shots.... it can also seriously mess with your mind without you actually realising it!

    If you had seen some of the groupings I had at the zeroing range before stalks, you would be chuffed to bits with those groups..... trust me, they are good!

  10. #10
    Ok lets work through this step by step.

    Firstly testing grouping properly takes time and ammunition expenditure three shots give an indication of a promising load but only an indication. 5 shots is where proper testing for grouping starts. One reason bench Rest is shot in strings of five.

    We have fooled ourselves into believing that just because we shoot a sporting/stalking rifle that it's not capable of the same accuracy as a target rifle. Whilst this may have been true once it does not hold true today. As we are told modern manufacturing techniques and the wonders of computer controlled machines mean that guns made today are better than ever........................... Hmmm well that's another point entirely.

    I believe it's the reduced cost of high precision inspection and measuring equipment like Air Gauges that mean barrels can be checked more easily and of course tooling can be ground/made more accurately. Trouble is a lot of manufacturers use thsi as an excuse to cut corners elsewhere like using semi skilled labour and having them watch several machines at once and reducing the percentage of inspection checks as after all computers don't make mistakes .

    Anyway back to group testing ...................... groups should be a minimum of 5 rounds and 10 is better still. As I have posted before these so called fliers are often the result of the normal harmonics of the barrel and ammunition combination and the only way to determine this is by testing over a period of time using one "Master" target which is used to collect groups of minimum five rounds shot over a period of time by using thei "Master" with a fresh target placed over the top. Once you have at least Five groups of minumum five shot groups on the master you will more than likely notice that those fliers now form part of the true grouping ability of you, your rifle and the ammunition being used.

    Of course the chances of many actually testing in this way is minimal as they wish to continue to delude themselves on the performance of their rifles. The usual excuses are time taken and cost of ammunition .

    It appears I have deleted the photos of the test I was doing with one rifle along these lines or I would have posted a couple to show how the so called fliers actually come in the larger composite group. I read about thsi method of group testing in a copy of Handloaders Digest or Gun Digest some years back but never used it until the other year when trying to fathom out the seemingly inconsistancy of a particular rifle. It was eye opening for sure as those shots I erronously labeled as fliers turned out to be in the group on the "Master" target.

    Edit:- As I am slow to type two replies appear while I was doing so which covered a lot of ground. Good points raised and covered one of which we are expecting bench rest performance in the field and that's unrealistic.
    Last edited by Brithunter; 13-01-2011 at 10:32.

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