Roe Doe....or is it??

Out yesterday morning to try and make more inroads into the doe cull.

Arrived on the ground at 06:30 and made my way through the woods to the clearing. Set myself up about 20 yards back from the clearing, with my back to a tree and the rifle up on the sticks. Fallow, my labrador, settled down by my side and started her customary quiet whining.

About 10 minutes later I look to my left and there's a young Fallow buck grazing in the woods. I watch him for 10 minutes as he grazes his way towards a large clump of pines and then I lose sight of him. Across the clearing come a couple of muntjac, but this morning it's only roe does that I'm after so I leave them to bimble their way through the woods. After about 35 minutes I notice that Fallow is looking behind us, so I carefully look over my shoulder and come face to face with a roe doe and two kids. They are only about 20 yards away but they've seen the dog already, so I watch the mother stamping the ground until, with a flurry, the three of them bound away into the firs beyond.

It's light enough now to see colour in the woodlands rather than just shades of gray. Looking down I can see the frost glistening and I decide that it's time to start my stalk through the woods. I take half a dozen steps towards the clearing and then a movement catches my eye. Through the trees to my right I see four fallow does leaving the woods and crossing the field. Behind them is another buck. Fallow are not hefted to our ground so we only take one or two each year. Eyeing them up I'm in two minds as to whether I should stalk them, but it's the doe cull that we're focusing on so again I decide to leave the fallow be as they make their way across the field to the green lane beyond.

I'm now at the edge of the clearing. I've stalked here many times before, and I know that the roe tend to favour the far edge. I look through my binos and sure enough, just beyond an oil drum feeder on the far side and about 100 yards away, four roe are feeding. Checking them through the binos they all look like does, but I watch them carefully and see the tell-tale anal tush on at least three of the four.

Stepping back carefully to the nearest tree I once again get the rifle up on the sticks. The roe are obscured by trees, but I'm pretty sure that as the sun rises they will make their way into the clearing. Just then I notice a doe kid leave the other three and run to my side of the clearing. She makes her way down the edge, stopping occasionally to browse on the brambles, and stops just short of where I can get a clear shot. I'm looking through the scope and see the twigs in the way. She reaches up to a branch and I ease the safety off and place the crosshairs on the base of her neck. Before I can squeeze the trigger she stops and stares at me and the dog, leaps in the air and runs back to the older doe. Two minutes later she repeats exactly the same process. Again I get ready for the shot and again she stares, then runs back to the doe.

After two or three more minutes the doe herself comes down the edge of the clearing. Mirroring the kid she browses on the undergrowth. Now about 75 yards away she stops and looks at me. Unlike the kid, however, she steps out into the clearing and turns broadside on.

She falls to the shot and the other three run back into the woods. Waiting for a minute or two I pick up the empty cartridge and make my way along the edge of the clearing towards the doe. As I approach her I can only see her head. My heart starts thumping as I see two lumps on her head. I'm sure she's a doe and as I walk closer I can now see the anal tush. Reaching down I see she the lumps are like pedicles of antlers, and I realise she's the first 'antlered' doe I've ever shot. As I'm studying her I look back to my right and the three followers emerge from the wood and now stand in the clearing. I'm in the wide open and my rifle is on the ground next to the dog. I pick it up and place it on the sticks, but before I can steady myself the three lose their patience and bound away barking.

I gralloch the doe and note that she is carrying twins, one buck and one doe, each about 8 or 9 cms long. With the time now at 08:45 I decide to call it a day, so attach the carrying strap to each of the legs, place her over my shoulder and carry her back to the car. Back in the larder the doe weighs in at 44 lbs - the biggest so far this season.

I take the head and decide to boil it out. You can see the results below.

Here's one of the skull on its own:

AntleredDoe-Skull.jpg


And one with the jaw alongside:

AntleredDoe-JawandSkull.jpg


Here is the jaw on its own:

AntleredDoe-JawCloseUp.jpg


and from the top:

AntleredDoe-JawProfile.jpg


I'm no expert, and I'd be interested in others thoughts, but I estimated her at between 6 and 7 years old. The outside of the teeth are worn down towards the outside and the jawbone has a well-defined ridge. The top of the skull is heavily ossified and the nasal bone is solid with very little cartilage remaining. I'll compare it to a reference chart when I get the chance, but so far as the cull plan is concerned she's definitely no yearling ;)
 
Willie-Gunn

Nice write up mate and she looks an interesting head.

Brings back some found memories of where you took her. Muntjac amoungst the blue bells on a May evening.

Hopefully see you soon mate.

Jon
 
I would put an animal with that amount of wear down as 'old' in my park deer records (Fallow females are either 'Fawns', 'Tegs' (yearlings), 'Mature' or 'Old' in my records). Bare in mind that I would say that most wild fallow would be expected to wear their teeth less quickly than my park deer as I feed fodder beet with soil on. The staining on the sides of the teeth is not too bad but I find that tooth staining gets less as the standard of trophy prep increases! I would say that you are probably not far out. 6-8 years old at a guess. Another factor that many people don't take into account is that fallow keep growing bigger for several years so, as a rough guide, big does tend to be older does. JC
 
A good write up that, I had an antlered doe on my ground last year, just one antler though, I didn't manage to take her and wondered if I'd see her again this year, but to date I haven't. Nice photo's, also that is a huge Doe, well it is for me anyway, most of mine run at about 34lbs.
 
I know it's easy for me, as I have the skull and jaw in front of me, but what makes you think 2-3 years old? I'm not having a go at you, just genuinely interested to know.

willie_gunn

From you photos. There is a nice presentation how to age roe deer if you interested. Not in English but you can figure it out with google translate or a dictionary. Ageing is not that difficult.

http://www.pzlolsztyn.pl/szkolenia/sarna_ocena_wieku.pdf

ATB

Greg
 
I would put an animal with that amount of wear down as 'old' in my park deer records (Fallow females are either 'Fawns', 'Tegs' (yearlings), 'Mature' or 'Old' in my records). Bare in mind that I would say that most wild fallow would be expected to wear their teeth less quickly than my park deer as I feed fodder beet with soil on. The staining on the sides of the teeth is not too bad but I find that tooth staining gets less as the standard of trophy prep increases! I would say that you are probably not far out. 6-8 years old at a guess. Another factor that many people don't take into account is that fallow keep growing bigger for several years so, as a rough guide, big does tend to be older does. JC

Disregard all of this drivel as I've just re-read your initial post and now realise that it wasn't a fallow at all! JC
 
From you photos. There is a nice presentation how to age roe deer if you interested. Not in English but you can figure it out with google translate or a dictionary. Ageing is not that difficult.

http://www.pzlolsztyn.pl/szkolenia/sarna_ocena_wieku.pdf

ATB

Greg

Greg

Many thanks for posting that link. It is a very interesting presentation. I just wish my Polish was better! I've saved it away for future reference.

I still contend that the difficulty with using teeth alone to age deer is that wear can be so dependant on local conditions and diet. I personally prefer to look at all the characteristics of age and base my estimate on that. So in this case I'd consider:

. Teeth Wear
. Ossification of skull
. Calcification of nasal cartilege
. Pedicle shape/size (for bucks)
. Development of jaw (angle, shape, characterisstics, etc.)
. Other characteristics of the deer - shape, size, etc

I'd take all these factors into account to come up with my estimate of age....and it can still be wrong! The only one that can age the deer with 100% accuracy is the deer itself, everything else is just guesswork!

So far as your comment that "Ageing is not that difficult", I agree in general, at least so far as judging kid, juvenile, middle age and old age. Unless the specific deer has characteristics that you can recognise from year to year (perhaps some odd colouring, physical injuries, antler conformation, etc), I believe that this age classification is as good as you can get when you are looking at the deer through the binoculars or scope and deciding on whether to squeeze the trigger or not.

Once the deer is on the ground or in the larder you have a lot more items of information that you can utilise, of which teeth wear is just one.

Thanks again for posting the link

willie_gunn
 
Greg

Many thanks for posting that link. It is a very interesting presentation. I just wish my Polish was better! I've saved it away for future reference.

I still contend that the difficulty with using teeth alone to age deer is that wear can be so dependant on local conditions and diet. I personally prefer to look at all the characteristics of age and base my estimate on that. So in this case I'd consider:

. Teeth Wear
. Ossification of skull
. Calcification of nasal cartilege
. Pedicle shape/size (for bucks)
. Development of jaw (angle, shape, characterisstics, etc.)
. Other characteristics of the deer - shape, size, etc

I'd take all these factors into account to come up with my estimate of age....and it can still be wrong! The only one that can age the deer with 100% accuracy is the deer itself, everything else is just guesswork!

So far as your comment that "Ageing is not that difficult", I agree in general, at least so far as judging kid, juvenile, middle age and old age. Unless the specific deer has characteristics that you can recognise from year to year (perhaps some odd colouring, physical injuries, antler conformation, etc), I believe that this age classification is as good as you can get when you are looking at the deer through the binoculars or scope and deciding on whether to squeeze the trigger or not.

Once the deer is on the ground or in the larder you have a lot more items of information that you can utilise, of which teeth wear is just one.

Thanks again for posting the link

willie_gunn

I agree, there is more to it than just teeth wear. I also agree it can differ from place to place as they have different menu, but not as much as 1-2 years. I think you can judge it +/- one year in roe in range 0 to 7-8 years old. You can also gather lower jaws as I do and have good source of data for comparison in your stalking area, and after time you will be more accurate.
At least it is a common practice on continent. Remember many countries issue permits to shoot e.g. 1-2 year old bucks and only allow to shoot spikers and 4-pointers, 2-5 year old bucks e.g up to 5-points or older than 5 with weight restrictions and all sorts of rules, and then use theeth wear to age deer and panelise those who shot for example young strong buck. I dont want to go more into it as I dont agree with the idea of selecting shooting with all restrictions, but teeth wear is widely used and most agree it is accurate enough.

Greg
 
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