Bullet weight

harrygrey382

Well-Known Member
I have a question on bullet weight. I always hear people (well, read I guess) saying you should use a heavier bullet when hunting bigger animals. Or say something like "you need at least 100gr for a red deer" or "don't shoot a buffalo with less than 350gr". By the way these are examples I'm not interested in whether they're true or not. I have an engineering background so should be able to work this out from a mathematical point of view but why is this?

I understand about momement, (mv) and energy (1/2mv^2). But for these, velocity is at least as important as bullet mass. So that can't be it.

I understand about penetration and sectional density. The more 'pressure' the bullet imparts the more it will penetrate for a given shape and velocity. But SD is not the same as weight - only in the same calibre. I 160gr 6.5mm bullet should penetrate better than a 160 gr 30 cal bullet at the same speed. So that can't it.

So what is it - is there some killing component I don't know about? Surely a 95gr 243 will kill at least as well as a 100gr 308?
 
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Or say something like "you need at least 100gr for a red dear"

Actually, in Scotland, THE LAW says it!

As far as the rest it isn't bullet weight or velocity on its own. Otherwise a solid bronze bullet with no cavity or expansion intitiating tip plug would kill just as well as an expanding bullet.

So it is about trauma. And how you cause that trauma. Which is not a thread I'm going to get involved in as it could last forever!
 
"By the way these are examples I'm not interested in whether they're true or not"

What part of this statement made by the poster don't you understand??

Harry: I think it is hard to make cross caliber comparisons. Sectional density should be really discussed in like caliber bullets. Think of it. The 243. 95 grain bullet launched at the same speed as 30 caliber bullet of the same mass is already at a possible disadvantage since the entrance hole with the 30 is larger to begin with. Technically, in like constructed bullets, the 6mm bullet would penetrate deeper, but the 30 caliber is carving out more meat on the way in. It's hard to make a comparison.

Experience sets the tare on the balance of judgement when it comes to choosing sectional density over weight, or visa-versa. Bell used sectional density combined with pin point accuracy and dropped elephants on the spot. Selous used 4 ounce lead balls fired at point blank range and would often hit them as many as 7 times and still lose the beast.

Choose your poison! ;)~Muir
 
Harry,

Your going to upset some of the armchair hunting experts in here now. Stick to the .308 for deer or your gonna get moaned at.

I agree with every word you say, I do not believe that bullet calibre has as much to do with good clean dispatch of animals as bullet placement. A 50cal bullet that hits a red deer in the ass is going to maim the animal badly but not kill it outright, yet a 20cal bullet hitting a red deer in the heart will drop it on a sixpence.

Too many posts on here are repeating the same old topic on calibres and not enough on accuracy and bullet placement.

The law has to make rules to stop the numpties from trying to kill deer with air rifles which is understandable, but some of the calibre rules are just lunacy. I use a U.S website called the long range hunting forum and I regularly see guys taking huge Elk with nothing more than a .243 at 100yds with good shot placement.

Check this post out >>> http://montanaelkhunting.blogspot.com/2009/07/308-7mm-08-243.html
Elk >>> http://www.alaskanalpinetreks.com/ImageGallery/Elk_2/images/ElkBull_e_054.jpg

In addition I just checked out Wikipedia and looked up a few different calibres.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.243_Winchester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7mm-08_Remington

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Winchester_Magnum

As you can see from the above links as the calibres and bullet weights get larger so does the ft/lb of energy imparted onto the target.

However let me give you food for thought.

If you use a 7mm08 with 150 soft nose bullet travelling at 2800fps would it be more effective than a .308 or 30.06 travelling at 2800fps ???

I suggest it will make very little difference, what will make a massive difference though is where you hit the target.

This is what we need to study more >>> http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/assets/images/Editorial/Deer%20Hunting/Features/July%202010/Deer%20shot%20placement/deer_hunting_shot_placement.jpg

What will affect the effectiveness of the shot is whether you hit the heart and lungs directly or whether you go high and hit the shoulder blade or go left/right and hit the gut. Its quite popular in the USA to go for spine shots on deer which again drops them on a sixpence if you get it right. I personally like to head/neck shoot small deer with varmint bullets under 200yds as I can drop them on the spot. An 87 grain .243 V-Max hitting a muntjac in the head will drop it quicker and more effectively than a 300win mag in the gut.

I recently read an article about an eskimo that shot a polar bear with a .22lr from close range and he dropped it on the spot with a single shot. I have also read a different article about a guy that shot a whitetail deer with a .338 lap mag and had to follow to blood trail to find and dispatch the creature after a poor shot. The more I read the more I believe different rifle calibres have little to do with the clean dispatch of animals at normal hunting ranges. Shot placement is everything.
 
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I wouldnt shoot my old "dear" with anything less than 130gr...

that said I have never used anything more or less than 130gr for roe, red hind or stags

Why Not???

What experiences have you had shooting deer with lighter bullets ???
 
"By the way these are examples I'm not interested in whether they're true or not"

What part of this statement made by the poster don't you understand??

Harry: I think it is hard to make cross caliber comparisons. Sectional density should be really discussed in like caliber bullets. Think of it. The 243. 95 grain bullet launched at the same speed as 30 caliber bullet of the same mass is already at a possible disadvantage since the entrance hole with the 30 is larger to begin with. Technically, in like constructed bullets, the 6mm bullet would penetrate deeper, but the 30 caliber is carving out more meat on the way in. It's hard to make a comparison.

Experience sets the tare on the balance of judgement when it comes to choosing sectional density over weight, or visa-versa. Bell used sectional density combined with pin point accuracy and dropped elephants on the spot. Selous used 4 ounce lead balls fired at point blank range and would often hit them as many as 7 times and still lose the beast.

Choose your poison! ;)~Muir
yep, thanks Muir some people need to read the whole post before replying... I'm satisfied that I was thinking straight. There's no point in talking purely about bullet mass, you have to factor in construction, velocity and sectional density too. But sometimes people don't
Harry,

Your going to upset some of the armchair hunting experts in here now. Stick to the .308 for deer or your gonna get moaned at.

I agree with every word you say, I do not believe that bullet calibre has as much to do with good clean dispatch of animals as bullet placement. A 50cal bullet that hits a red deer in the ass is going to maim the animal badly but not kill it outright, yet a 20cal bullet hitting a red deer in the heart will drop it on a sixpence.

Too many posts on here are repeating the same old topic on calibres and not enough on accuracy and bullet placement.

The law has to make rules to stop the numpties from trying to kill deer with air rifles which is understandable, but some of the calibre rules are just lunacy. I use a U.S website called the long range hunting forum and I regularly see guys taking huge Elk with nothing more than a .243 at 100yds with good shot placement.

Check this post out >>> http://montanaelkhunting.blogspot.com/2009/07/308-7mm-08-243.html
Elk >>> http://www.alaskanalpinetreks.com/ImageGallery/Elk_2/images/ElkBull_e_054.jpg

In addition I just checked out Wikipedia and looked up a few different calibres.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.243_Winchester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7mm-08_Remington

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Winchester_Magnum

As you can see from the above links as the calibres and bullet weights get larger so does the ft/lb of energy imparted onto the target.

However let me give you food for thought.

If you use a 7mm08 with 150 soft nose bullet travelling at 2800fps would it be more effective than a .308 or 30.06 travelling at 2800fps ???

I suggest it will make very little difference, what will make a massive difference though is where you hit the target.

This is what we need to study more >>> http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/assets/images/Editorial/Deer%20Hunting/Features/July%202010/Deer%20shot%20placement/deer_hunting_shot_placement.jpg

What will affect the effectiveness of the shot is whether you hit the heart and lungs directly or whether you go high and hit the shoulder blade or go left/right and hit the gut. Its quite popular in the USA to go for spine shots on deer which again drops them on a sixpence if you get it right. I personally like to head/neck shoot small deer with varmint bullets under 200yds as I can drop them on the spot. An 87 grain .243 V-Max hitting a muntjac in the head will drop it quicker and more effectively than a 300win mag in the gut.

I recently read an article about an eskimo that shot a polar bear with a .22lr from close range and he dropped it on the spot with a single shot. I have also read a different article about a guy that shot a whitetail deer with a .338 lap mag and had to follow to blood trail to find and dispatch the creature after a poor shot. The more I read the more I believe different rifle calibres have little to do with the clean dispatch of animals at normal hunting ranges. Shot placement is everything.
Make mine a 30-06 though ay!

Yep totally agree Rob. Shot placement will, within reason, be the most important actor. It's just it ****es me off when people only take about bullet weight and aren't thinking about anything else. As I think we've decided a heavy on it's own has absolutely no advantage over a light one - when only considering this value.
I wouldnt shoot my old "dear" with anything less than 130gr...

that said I have never used anything more or less than 130gr for roe, red hind or stags
Lol yep my spelling sucks... Better fix it
 
Why Not???

What experiences have you had shooting deer with lighter bullets ???

it was a jibe at the "dear".....

never used anything lighter or heavier as I saw no point. it works at 130, if it isnt broken there was no point.
130 through the heart of a 24stone red stag still drops in very quickly
 
If you go through the various sections on here you will see many threads with people arguing that one calibre is better than another at taking certain target species. However, when you look up the velocities and bullet weights of each calibre you will see that there are very little difference with them and you are able to customise most of the loads from one calibre to give a virtually identicle impact in ft/lb of another. You can then argue that the diameter of the bullet makes a difference to the damage caused to the target, but this diameter could vary hugely on impact depending on the bullet type and how it expands on impact. So I do not believe bullet diameter is the be all and end all either. You can argue that for long range shooting a .308 isn't up to taking deer over 600yds and that a .338 win mag is far superior and yes I would agree, and you can argue that a 30.06 isn't suitable for taking cape buffalo in Africa and yet again I would agree. But from what little knowledge I have gained of calibres I think it is fair to say that most of the calibre choice is down to fashion and not suitability. A .308Win will dispatch any deer species at a sensible range with a suitable bullet if the guy with his finger on the trigger can hit the target.

I think I can say with a degree of certainty that calibre doesn't play as bigger role in effective dispatch of a target as bullet placement and bullet type.
 
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I'm not a ballistician, but it's generally accepted that a light bullet is more prone to wind drift - an extreme example being a .17hmr. Lea MacNally used a .243 for all his red stalking, but believed as getting as close as possible before taking a shot. If you're on the open hill, in a gusting and swirling wind, you want the greatest degree of accuracy possible....you either stalk close or choose the most stable calibre available (ideally, both), otherwise you are likely to end up with a higher proportion of runners.
 
I'm not a ballistician, but it's generally accepted that a light bullet is more prone to wind drift - an extreme example being a .17hmr. Lea MacNally used a .243 for all his red stalking, but believed as getting as close as possible before taking a shot. If you're on the open hill, in a gusting and swirling wind, you want the greatest degree of accuracy possible....you either stalk close or choose the most stable calibre available (ideally, both), otherwise you are likely to end up with a higher proportion of runners.

Accepted, but if you look at the difference in wind drift at 200yds its nothing in hunting terms.

Figures supplied from nightforce Exbal.
.308~ 180grain bullet @2600fps with 10mph wind from 3 oclock position needs 1.5MOA adjustment.
.30-06~ 200grain bullet @ 2600fps with 10mph wind from 3 oclock position needs 1.5MOA adjustments.

SAME !!!

Yes I know you can go a bit heavier with the 30-06 and even a little bit faster on velocity, but the difference is minimal. In addition, if you have an accurate drop chart and wind meter with rangefinder it will make no difference as you dial in your adjustments and just point dead center. Alternatively if you use the point blank range system and just aim to hit a 6" disc up to 300yds it will still make very little difference at normal hunting differences.

I think that a lot of people do not study the ballistics in any great depth and are not aware of just how similar a lot of the calibers really are. Often they will get the results they are after with the rifle they already have with a different bullet and powder.
 
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I believe in order of importance when shooting a live targets are the following three things.
1/ accurate shot placement
2/ correct /appropriate bullet construction
3/ caliber size
I have shot deer (not as many as I would like) with both my .243 & .308. the deer when shot H/L don't go down any quicker with the .308 than the .243
My 243 is traveling at 3150 fps with a 85gr bullet producing 1870 ft/lbs of energy
My 308 is traveling at 2700 fps with a 150 gr bullet producing 2430 ft/lbs of energy
The difference between my .243 & .308 in ft/lbs energy is 600 ft/lbs of energy
These are my thoughts ,findings,believes, theories whatever you want to call them .With the bullets I use on the .243 (85gr hpbt) when a deer is hit H/L I only get bullets exiting about 40% of the time (part of the bullet normally) what I think the .243 does is it transfers / dumps most of its 1870 ft/lbs of energy into the deer/target.
The.308 (150 gr sp) on the other hand always leaves a nice exit wound but is it wasting a lot of its 2430 ft/lbs of energy when exiting the deer/target putting this energy into the backstop. I have seen bullets that have gone through deer then go through a 6" diameter bog wood tree how much energy is that wasting on leaving the deer.
what I think the bigger calibers give you is a greater margin for error if with the .243 I gut shot a deer quartering away from me I don't think my little 85gr could go all the way through the gut and then through the vitals and cause enough damage to put the animal down quickly ,where as the .308 could . easy solution I don't shot animals that I am not happy with their position whatever caliber used
what I like from the .243 flatter shooting & transfers all its energy into the deer what I like from the .308 is it leaves a nice size exit wound to follow a blood trail if needed and more penetration if needed. I am a fan of fast bullets so I think I will always side this way i think sometimes the .243 does transfer more energy than the .308
A few years back I had a .243 with a long barrel and with some reloading magic got some 75gr bullets to travel at just under 3700 fps I shot two Fallow deer H/L with this combo , these deer went down like they were pole axed literally dropped to the shot with a small light bullet, turning the H/L literally to a liquid mush which would put any size deer down, I have shot lots of different types of test media from modelers clay to wet Argos catalogs the odd deer and lots of fox have never ever had a fast varmint type of bullet explode on impact and cause a surface wound , they do not penetrate as much as bonded types but they will still penetrate a good way and cause a greater wound channel . What I did get was a batch of 6 mm Barnes TSX not expand and these penciled through everything that was shot at.
I now use a .308 for deer as the .243 is my varminting and longer range rig as it was getting banged about chasing deer a bit to much when I use up the remaining 150 gr .308 bullets I might go for a lighter bullet perhaps a 123 gr or just leave it as everything I have shot has gone down quickly , so if its not broken don't fix it.
regards.............Neil
 
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I believe in order of importance when shooting a live targets are the following three things.
1/ accurate shot placement
2/ correct /appropriate bullet construction
3/ caliber size
I have shot deer (not as many as I would like) with both my .243 & .308. the deer when shot H/L don't go down any quicker with the .308 than the .243
My 243 is traveling at 3150 fps with a 85gr bullet producing 1870 ft/lbs of energy
My 308 is traveling at 2700 fps with a 150 gr bullet producing 2430 ft/lbs of energy
The difference between my .243 & .308 in ft/lbs energy is 600 ft/lbs of energy
These are my thoughts ,findings,believes, theories whatever you want to call them .With the bullets I use on the .243 (85gr hpbt) when a deer is hit H/L I only get bullets exiting about 40% of the time (part of the bullet normally) what I think the .243 does is it transfers / dumps most of its 1870 ft/lbs of energy into the deer/target.
The.308 (150 gr sp) on the other hand always leaves a nice exit wound but is it wasting a lot of its 2430 ft/lbs of energy when exiting the deer/target putting this energy into the backstop. I have seen bullets that have gone through deer then go through a 6" diameter bog wood tree how much energy is that wasting on leaving the deer.
what I think the bigger calibers give you is a greater margin for error if with the .243 I gut shot a deer quartering away from me I don't think my little 85gr could go all the way through the gut and then through the vitals and cause enough damage to put the animal down quickly ,where as the .308 could . easy solution I don't shot animals that I am not happy with their position whatever caliber used
what I like from the .243 flatter shooting & transfers all its energy into the deer what I like from the .308 is it leaves a nice size exit wound to follow a blood trail if needed and more penetration if needed. I am a fan of fast bullets so I think I will always side this way i think sometimes the .243 does transfer more energy than the .308
A few years back I had a .243 with a long barrel and with some reloading magic got some 75gr bullets to travel at just under 3700 fps I shot two Fallow deer H/L with this combo , these deer went down like they were pole axed literally dropped to the shot with a small light bullet, turning the H/L literally to a liquid mush which would put any size deer down, I have shot lots of different types of test media from modelers clay to wet Argos catalogs the odd deer and lots of fox have never ever had a fast varmint type of bullet explode on impact and cause a surface wound , they do not penetrate as much as bonded types but they will still penetrate a good way and cause a greater wound channel . What I did get was a batch of 6 mm Barnes TSX not expand and these penciled through everything that was shot at.
I now use a .308 for deer as the .243 is my varminting and longer range rig as it was getting banged about chasing deer a bit to much when I use up the remaining 150 gr .308 bullets I might go for a lighter bullet perhaps a 123 gr or just leave it as everything I have shot has gone down quickly , so if its not broken don't fix it.
regards.............Neil

Hiya Neil,

I think what you say makes a lot of sense. The .243 is a great varminting round and gives me great long range capabilities with a fast flat shooting bullet. It also gives me the ability to shoot the smaller deer species with the same bullet. When I go out with the Tikka .243 I take a box of 80 grain Berger Varmint bullets with me and with them I am able to take anything from crows to Roe deer with ease up to 400yds.

If I am going anywhere to specifically take larger deer or boar I will take the .308 and 175grain match king bullets and with that combination I would feel confident taking any deer/boar on the planet.

The 6.5x55, .30-06, .270, .280 7mm08, 7mm Rem Mag, 300WinMag etc...etc... all do the same job as my .308 with either a little more or little less velocity and bullet selection.

I am relatively new to the world of rifle shooting but I have gone to great lengths to learn about different calibers and rifles and I am convinced that with a .243win a .308win and a .375 Holland and Holland Magnum you would be capable of hunting any mammal on the planet including large dangerous game.
 
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Hiya Neil,

I think what you say makes a lot of sense. The .243 is a great varminting round and gives me great long range capabilities with a fast flat shooting bullet. It also gives me the ability to shoot the smaller deer species with the same bullet. When I go out with the Tikka .243 I take a box of 80 grain Berger Varmint bullets with me and with them I am able to take anything from crows to Roe deer with ease up to 400yds.

If I am going anywhere to specifically take larger deer or boar I will take the .308 and 175grain match king bullets and with that combination I would feel confident taking any deer/boar on the planet.

The 6.5x55, .30-06, .270, .280 7mm08, 7mm Rem Mag, 300WinMag etc...etc... all do the same job as my .308 with either a little more or little less velocity and bullet selection.

I am relatively new to the world of rifle shooting but I have gone to great lengths to learn about different calibers and rifles and I am convinced that with a .243win a .308win and a .375 Holland and Holland Magnum you would be capable of hunting any mammal on the planet including large dangerous game.

So you load your ammo to shoot the smaller deer species with VARMINT bullets, and the larger deer species with MATCH bullets???

Looks like that after your 6 months of centrefire rifle shooting you now know more than the likes of Sierra, Hornady and Berger who specifically state that their
varmint bullets and match bullets are NOT SUITABLE for taking larger game.

Unbelievable!!!!
 
If you look at the bullets that a lot of the long range hunters use in the USA you will see that a lot are using SMK with great success on target species as large as Elk.

They are incredibly consistent and effective.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/300-sierra-mk-terminal-performance-62609/


In addition yes I do use V-Max and Berger varmint bullets on muntjac regularly and for your information they stop the Munties in there tracks with no problems. To date I have taken 6 munties in the last 8 weeks. Each stopped in its tracks, no runners, 4 head shots, 2 H&L with minimal meat damage. At ranges from 60-400yds.

Whats your point !!!

Obviously you have never used them but come on here and gripe at people that do, if you care to ask around a lot of guys on here and other shooting forums use V-Max for munties. If you ever get the chance to shoot munties try V-Max on them before criticising others that have been doing it successfully in the field without issue.

DEAD IS DEAD !!!
 
In addition, if you have an accurate drop chart and wind meter with rangefinder it will make no difference as you dial in your adjustments and just point dead center. Alternatively if you use the point blank range system and just aim to hit a 6" disc up to 300yds it will still make very little difference at normal hunting differences.QUOTE]

It could be a bit difficult to use a drop chart & wind meter when you've got a group of very alert hinds watching you intently. Also it is a gusting wind, which eddies around contours, that is hard to compensate for in my view.
 
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If you look at the bullets that a lot of the long range hunters use in the USA you will see that a lot are using SMK with great success on target species as large as Elk.

They are incredibly consistent and effective.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/300-sierra-mk-terminal-performance-62609/


In addition yes I do use V-Max and Berger varmint bullets on muntjac regularly and for your information they stop the Munties in there tracks with no problems. To date I have taken 6 munties in the last 8 weeks. Each stopped in its tracks, no runners, 4 head shots, 2 H&L with minimal meat damage. At ranges from 60-400yds.

Whats your point !!!

DEAD IS DEAD !!!

Yes, but illegal is illegal.

SMK's are not considered Hollow Point - the 'hollow point' is actually called a meplat and is intended to aid consistency, not to aid expansion.
Sierra state this is not a hunting bullet and I sincerely doubt a court interpreting the Deer act of 1991,and it's statement on legal projectiles, would be sympathetic, if you were ever misfortunate enough to have to defend your actions...
 
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