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Thread: Mentored Condition Query.

  1. #1

    Mentored Condition Query.

    A friend of mine is currently mentoringa stalker who shoots with .243 calibre rifle for deer. The mentored stalker was planning to buy a days stalking and would have been able to use his .243 without his mentor being present. I am able to offer the mentored stalker a days roe shooting for free, as a friend of a friend. My quesitons are as follows :-

    - I am pretty certain that the mentored stalker can not use his .243 rifle on my land without the presence of his mentor as this is a condition of his cerrtificate but I am informed that as I have a full certificate I am able to take him shooting on my land using my rifle (6.5x55) with the permission of the land owner as I am classed as a servant of the land owner. The mentored stalker will be in my presence at all times and I will be overseeing safety/other issues. I am also led to believe this is written in the home office guidelines.

    Can somebody please confirm this and/or send this information to me if they know where I can find it. Any other information that will help me is greatly appreciated before I contact my local police regarding this.

    Thanks
    Pete

  2. #2
    Pete, some Q&As as below:

    Quote Originally Posted by chickenman View Post
    A friend of mine is currently mentoringa stalker who shoots with .243 calibre rifle for deer. The mentored stalker was planning to buy a days stalking [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]and would have been able to use his .243 without his mentor being present[/COLOR]. I am able to offer the mentored stalker a days roe shooting for free, as a friend of a friend. My quesitons are as follows :-
    If what you say below is the state of play - i.e. the FAC holder has a condition on his cert that specifically names a 'mentor' and it's only in who's presence he can stalk, then that is the end of the matter. That named person must be present otherwise the FAC holder will be in breach of the condition.

    I am pretty certain that the mentored stalker can not use his .243 rifle on my land without the presence of his mentor as this is a condition of his cerrtificate but I am informed that as I have a full certificate I am able to take him shooting on my land using my rifle (6.5x55) with the permission of the land owner as I am classed as a servant of the land owner. The mentored stalker will be in my presence at all times and I will be overseeing safety/other issues. I am also led to believe this is written in the home office guidelines.
    Yes, that's the 'estate rifle' clause. But make doubly sure you satisfy the criteria for it - it's in the HO Guidance and there is a guidance sheet about it on the BASC website.

    Can somebody please confirm this and/or send this information to me if they know where I can find it. Any other information that will help me is greatly appreciated before I contact my local police regarding this.
    HO Guidance is on a stickie at the head of this forum section. The Estate Rifle Exemption can be viewed as a .pdf via http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/...7529F5D17C4E2F

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by chickenman View Post
    A friend of mine is currently mentoringa stalker who shoots with .243 calibre rifle for deer. The mentored stalker was planning to buy a days stalking and would have been able to use his .243 without his mentor being present. I am able to offer the mentored stalker a days roe shooting for free, as a friend of a friend. My quesitons are as follows :-

    - I am pretty certain that the mentored stalker can not use his .243 rifle on my land without the presence of his mentor as this is a condition of his cerrtificate but I am informed that as I have a full certificate I am able to take him shooting on my land using my rifle (6.5x55) with the permission of the land owner as I am classed as a servant of the land owner. The mentored stalker will be in my presence at all times and I will be overseeing safety/other issues. I am also led to believe this is written in the home office guidelines.

    Can somebody please confirm this and/or send this information to me if they know where I can find it. Any other information that will help me is greatly appreciated before I contact my local police regarding this.

    Thanks
    Pete
    You are correct. He and his rifle are tied to the mentor by the wording on his ticket. He can use another rifle under the estate rifle rule. Best to get that condition off asap.

  4. #4
    Thanks for your replies gents. Re the condition, does that not apply to JUST the .243 and secondly does the estate rifle clause apply to someone who DOESNT have an FAC....if you have an FAC surely you can use someone elses rifle....as that rifle is in their charge.. it would be myself and the other person would be just under supervision?? ie they wouldnt be able to use the rifle if say the owner of the rifle was driving a vehicle when foxing and the other person shooting off the back.

    All very confusing
    Last edited by chickenman; 11-02-2011 at 21:16.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by chickenman View Post
    Thanks for your replies gents. Re the condition, does that not apply to JUST the .243 and secondly does the estate rifle clause apply to someone who DOESNT have an FAC....if you have an FAC surely you can use someone elses rifle....as that rifle is in their charge.. it would be myself and the other person would be just under supervision?? ie they wouldnt be able to use the rifle if say the owner of the rifle was driving a vehicle when foxing and the other person shooting off the back.

    All very confusing
    AFAIK the 'estate rifle' provision applies to people over the minimum age regardless of whether they hold FAC or not.

    Holding a FAC does not AFAIK make you, with respect to rifles not on that FAC, any different in law to someone with no FAC.

  6. #6
    Ahh I understand now...so basically its a no go until his condition is removed....even if he paid for a days stalking with who-so-ever anywhere in the country?

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    Pete

  7. #7
    Is the Mentor specifically named on his Cert or does it say as my first FAC said " whilst accompanied by an experienced Shot"

    If it specifies the name of the Mentor on his ticket then its a NO GO unless that person is present.

    if it just states accompanied by an experienced shot then assuming that you satisfy the criteria then he will be ok.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by chickenman View Post
    Ahh I understand now...so basically its a no go until his condition is removed....even if he paid for a days stalking with who-so-ever anywhere in the country.
    Clarification.

    It's no-go for him to use his own .243 under any circumstances without the named mentor being presnt.

    He can however use A. N. Other's rifle in their presence if the 'Estate Rifle' clause is satisfied.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by chickenman View Post
    A friend of mine is currently mentoringa stalker who shoots with .243 calibre rifle for deer. The mentored stalker was planning to buy a days stalking and would have been able to use his .243 without his mentor being present. I am able to offer the mentored stalker a days roe shooting for free, as a friend of a friend. My quesitons are as follows :-

    - I am pretty certain that the mentored stalker can not use his .243 rifle on my land without the presence of his mentor as this is a condition of his cerrtificate but I am informed that as I have a full certificate I am able to take him shooting on my land using my rifle (6.5x55) with the permission of the land owner as I am classed as a servant of the land owner. The mentored stalker will be in my presence at all times and I will be overseeing safety/other issues. I am also led to believe this is written in the home office guidelines.

    Can somebody please confirm this and/or send this information to me if they know where I can find it. Any other information that will help me is greatly appreciated before I contact my local police regarding this.

    Thanks
    Pete
    I suggest that although the guys on here are very well versed in the FAC laws, they are not the ones you and your understudy have to satisfy legally. Why don't you just pick up the phone or preferrably email your FAC licensing department for clarification, that way you know for certain if your getting into warm/hot water.

    I always send emails and request replies via email too, that way I have an evidence trail. Thankfully I am in Leicestershire and my FLO seems to be a very sensible switched on and helpful guy.

  10. #10
    +1 Sound advise Rob - speak to the only person who counts, the FEO. Or better still as you say get it in writing.

    Orion said "It's no-go for him to use his own .243 under any circumstances without the named mentor being presnt. He can however use A. N. Other's rifle in their presence if the 'Estate Rifle' clause is satisfied."
    That's a farcical situation but unfortunately I've seen it happen on a rifle range. Because his ticket wasn't conditioned for target shooting the shooter couldn't use his own rifle on the range but could use a club gun or someone elses rifle with their permission under the relaxations allowed for Home Office approved clubs. Other club members could however use this guys rifle with his permission. The FEO was insistant that this was correct even when it was pointed out how stupid this was. They eventually saw sence and altered the conditions on the shooters certificate.

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