Muzzleloaders

I remember reading about this in the ACPO FELWG muinets. if my memory serves me the subject was discussed following representation by either the BASC or NGO. The ACPO ruling was no.
 
I remember reading about this in the ACPO FELWG muinets. if my memory serves me the subject was discussed following representation by either the BASC or NGO. The ACPO ruling was no.

If you look at the link, the second load down

.357 Dead Center - 195 grain - BC .375 - 120 gr. Triple Seven FFF - Winchester X150 .45 Distance (yards) Muzzle 50 100 150 200 250 300 Velocity (fps) 2290 2180 2073 1970 1871 1776 1684 Kinetic Energy (ft lb) 2270 2057 1861 1681 1515 1365 1228 Trajectory 1.8 3.3 2.8 0 -5.2 -13.3
this load is the ballistics required by Scottish and English law,So to me its perfectly legal :confused:

Bernie
 
ACPO as I said have addresed the issue. I have found their reference to muzzleloaders and fox but cant find the minutes for 2001 when they addressed the subject of deer. Sorry I cant help further. Try asking the NGO.
08/01/13 The use of muzzle-loading rifles to shoot fox
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]13.1 Members considered previously circulated backing papers and Richard Udall reminded members that the use of muzzle-loading rifles had been considered in 2001 in the shooting of deer and provided copies of relevant documentation.
13.2 The arguments against using muzzle-loaded rifles to shoot fox on the grounds of the quarry being obscured by smoke on firing and there being no facility for an immediate second shot were not entirely persuasive.
13.3 Members agreed, however, that while animal welfare was not a policing issue, FELWG could not knowingly agree to something which may result in cruelty. The overriding duty of firearms licensing is, however, to consider public safety and members have deep concerns with regard to the inherent extra risks associated with the use of muzzle loading rifles.
13.4 Members agreed the application in question should be turned down for public safety reasons and the chair will write to Bill Harriman (copied to Surrey Firearms Licensing).
[/FONT]
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Errr since when did ACPO write the laws?

The Law itself does not mention them is relation to hunting as it makes no mention of Black Powder loaded cartridges.
 
Ive Dug about for a fair bit on this, and have come to the Conclusion that the law, governing bodies, BASC, Ect Ect are in this for the money nowt else,in the USA they have been Taking all Quarry Including Grizzley Bears with Muzzleloading Rifles, and still are Today,more Deer, Elk, Moose, Ect Each year than Centrefire Rifles

The Ballistics above are what are Law Requires,so whats the Prob ???

Bernie
 
I own and have hunted Deer with .270 WIN (Remi 700); 30-06 SPFD (Savage 111FCNS); .50 Muzzleoader (TC Omega); 12 Guage Shotgun slug gun, and with a Ten Point Turbo HLX Crossbow, and if given the choice hands down I would use the centerfire rifles in all situations.

Yes a 50 cal Muzzleloader with drop a whitetail size deer like the Hammer of Thor if you get a heart or double lung shot, BUT accruacy as compared to a centerfire rifle is poor to say the least. A consistant experienced loader using premium Sabot's can reasonably hope, in my opinion at best have a 4" 3 shot group at 100 yards; whereas the same shooter would reasonably be expected to have sub MOA from a production CF Rifle shooting non premium factory ammo. We use Muzzleloaders and bows over here as it signicantly extends our Deer season. The reason that the various state Department's of Wildlife Management allow extended seasons for Muzzleloaders is that they recognize that the efficacy of Muzzleloaders are so much less than a CF rifle (due to both accuracy and followup chat capability deficiencies) that the 4 week typical muzzlelaoder season will result in the same number of filled deer tags as two week CF rifle season. This data comes about a each tag must not only record, when, where, but also how a deer was harvested when the paper tag is surrendered for the metal at the deer check station within 24 hours of kill.

Couple more issues to consider:
1. Because you must get in close with a Muzzleloader (75 yards or less), unless you are in a treestand (high seat for you guys), it can be dangerous so stalk in with a Muzzleloader, as you normally will have the 209 primer in place and there is no safety expect for half cock on nearly all muzzleloaders.
2. Muzzloaders really Kick HARD even with two pellets of 777 or pryodex, and if you go for the max load of 150 Grains (3 pellets); then you better make sure you are not using a tree or any fixed hard object to steady your shot, because it can increase the felt recoil a lot.

Bottom line, stick with CF Rifle's if at all possible, for both your safe and for the sake of your quarry.
 
Ive Dug about for a fair bit on this, and have come to the Conclusion that the law, governing bodies, BASC, Ect Ect are in this for the money nowt else,in the USA they have been Taking all Quarry Including Grizzley Bears with Muzzleloading Rifles, and still are Today,more Deer, Elk, Moose, Ect Each year than Centrefire Rifles

The Ballistics above are what are Law Requires,so whats the Prob ???

Bernie

Scotland... minimum muzzle velocity 2450fps.... Sorry, the load you quote above doesn't do that and you must use expanding bullets. Are the bullets you would use expanders?
 
Ive Dug about for a fair bit on this, and have come to the Conclusion that the law, governing bodies, BASC, Ect Ect are in this for the money nowt else,in the USA they have been Taking all Quarry Including Grizzley Bears with Muzzleloading Rifles, and still are Today,more Deer, Elk, Moose, Ect Each year than Centrefire Rifles

The Ballistics above are what are Law Requires,so whats the Prob ???

Bernie

Bernie, I think you may have misspoken, while yes a significant number of animals are taken with Muzzleloaders each year here in the US. CF Rifles take by far the most, followed by shotguns shooting slugs and a close third between Bows and Muzzleloaders, but I think bows probably win out over muzzleloaders, simply based on the much greater number of Archary Stamps sold over Primitive Firearms (muzzleloader) stamps......No Stamp. NO HUNT.
 
I own and have hunted Deer with .270 WIN (Remi 700); 30-06 SPFD (Savage 111FCNS); .50 Muzzleoader (TC Omega); 12 Guage Shotgun slug gun, and with a Ten Point Turbo HLX Crossbow, and if given the choice hands down I would use the centerfire rifles in all situations.

Yes a 50 cal Muzzleloader with drop a whitetail size deer like the Hammer of Thor if you get a heart or double lung shot, BUT accruacy as compared to a centerfire rifle is poor to say the least. A consistant experienced loader using premium Sabot's can reasonably hope, in my opinion at best have a 4" 3 shot group at 100 yards; whereas the same shooter would reasonably be expected to have sub MOA from a production CF Rifle shooting non premium factory ammo. We use Muzzleloaders and bows over here as it signicantly extends our Deer season. The reason that the various state Department's of Wildlife Management allow extended seasons for Muzzleloaders is that they recognize that the efficacy of Muzzleloaders are so much less than a CF rifle (due to both accuracy and followup chat capability deficiencies) that the 4 week typical muzzlelaoder season will result in the same number of filled deer tags as two week CF rifle season. This data comes about a each tag must not only record, when, where, but also how a deer was harvested when the paper tag is surrendered for the metal at the deer check station within 24 hours of kill.

Couple more issues to consider:
1. Because you must get in close with a Muzzleloader (75 yards or less), unless you are in a treestand (high seat for you guys), it can be dangerous so stalk in with a Muzzleloader, as you normally will have the 209 primer in place and there is no safety expect for half cock on nearly all muzzleloaders.
2. Muzzloaders really Kick HARD even with two pellets of 777 or pryodex, and if you go for the max load of 150 Grains (3 pellets); then you better make sure you are not using a tree or any fixed hard object to steady your shot, because it can increase the felt recoil a lot.

Bottom line, stick with CF Rifle's if at all possible, for both your safe and for the sake of your quarry.

I know what your saying here, but to me personally 75mts is the way to go,why dont we all cut the crap with all this Macho long shot ****,and get a Helicopter gunship and shoot them from a mile or so and brag about how far away we shot one ???

Bernie
 
7min 48s in... Guy shoots a Black Bear in Michigan.

Your profile says Derby and you're talking about shooting here in the UK.

So, your point is?

The point is, the Ballistics are what is required in the UK for Shooting Deer,you i presume are some upper class know all expert,with plenty of money,trying to keep Deer Stalking for the Wealthy ????????

Bernie
 
The point is, the Ballistics are what is required in the UK for Shooting Deer,you i presume are some upper class know all expert,with plenty of money,trying to keep Deer Stalking for the Wealthy ????????

Bernie

:rofl:

I didn't make the law Bernie and I certainly don't "know it all" but that doesn't change the facts...In Scotland minimum MV for deer is 2450fps (with an expanding bullet) and you quoted lower MV's. So, sorry, but that doesn't meet the ballistic requirements here in Scotland.

"Upper class"..... you're a funny guy.... Next you'll be sayin' "it's cos aye iz Bleck... init?"

Have you done any deer stalking in the UK yet?
 
Tell you what Pal Your a Forum Muppet,been on the Forums a good while Now and can spot Muppets a mile Away,am a Member of a Syndicate in Scotland, Dumfries Area,Next time I'm up if you want to meet up no Probs, and we'll see if your so GOBBY

Bernie
 
Tell you what Pal Your a Forum Muppet,been on the Forums a good while Now and can spot Muppets a mile Away,am a Member of a Syndicate in Scotland, Dumfries Area,Next time I'm up if you want to meet up no Probs, and we'll see if your so GOBBY

Bernie

Steady fella... No need to get heated.

Do you make bushcraft knives by any chance?
 
OK, fair enough, glad to hear it.

Good luck with the rest of your time on this forum Mr. Garland.

I think we're done now.

So what we Saying here then,talk how we want you too,its my house and we only want to hear what we like,or the Ban hammer ??????

Bernie
 
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