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Thread: deer and grouse

  1. #1

    deer and grouse

    being a deer related forum i would imagine that im not alone in thinking that there must be a better way of managing tick than to "build a big fence and shoot all the deer inside" i for one would love to see grouse back on a lot of our hills, but not at the demise of our deer forests.
    so, just wondering what similarily minded peoples views are on managing tick.

    my initial thoughts are things such as sheep as "tick mops", rubbing posts at feed sites or places where deer regulary gather which could be soaked in a product such as spot-on,
    surely in this age we have the ability to make medicated grits which can treat for tick and medicated licks for deer which treat for tick, and possibly even getting your neibors involved if you can.

    i just feel that while we should be trying to help the grouse i also feel that we should be treating our deer with alot more respect than some places do.

    whats your views and ideas?

  2. #2
    FT, it would not be possible to use random treatment of pour on (rub on ) types, not sure how aware you are of withdrawl periods in meat animals????

    Nell

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by nell View Post
    FT, it would not be possible to use random treatment of pour on (rub on ) types, not sure how aware you are of withdrawl periods in meat animals????

    Nell
    good point.
    tick mops (sheep) work and is a tried and tested manner.

    f.

  4. #4
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    It has already been proved that building a big fence and shooting all the deer is the answer to reviving grouse numbers.

    The Angus glens are proof of this most estates built fences and shot out the deer.

    Did it work, well not until this year did the grouse number revive.

    However one of the estates Invermark that did not murder the deer had a good as grouse numbers as the ones who have not deer for the last few years.

    The dipping of sheep seems to be the answer not the verminising of Red Deer

  5. #5
    A good question for the couple of professional hill stalkers on here. What was the answer 100 years ago when a hill stalker was often a grouse keeper and sheperd too? JC

  6. #6
    I don't know if invermark had quite as prolific season as some of it neighbours (in terms of total numbers atleast) who really performed well this year. Altou i don't think invermark has the same ammount of keepers as some of its neighbours. I have only walked up the invermark area while i have beat on some of the neighbouring ground and they are very big scale shoots. For all this year was a right bonanza the game ruturns have been going up steadily and somtimes dramatically year on year. 1 est is shooting 10 times more grouse than it was 5 years ago. I think that's a massive rise for a truely wild bird.

    As for the deer and grouse, the lack of deer does seem to give the rapid increase in grouse which is needed to pay all the keepers wages and start gettin money back in for wot is a massive initial investment to try to get driven grouse back and at 150+ a brace possibilty of a lot off money if managed right.

    Althou i seen invermark had 70 stags (last weeks st red stag review) taken off it which is revenue the other estates wouldn't have.

    It's a shame that deer and grouse can't coexist together and both be finacially viable but seems to be the way at the moment and many moor owners it seems would rather have the prestige off driven grouse moor than a stalking estate.

    U could argue that the intensive moor and predator managent that takes place for grouse is leaving the heather in better nick and more other species waders etc.
    So possibly more scenic and wildlife value, also alot more money involved on a shoot day, i've seen almost 100 people out on any day between beaters, pickers up, flankers, loaders and then u have the catering staff behind the scenes, all money going to the locals.

    It's a difficult one, and the gct doing a lot of research into it, but the boys who are gettin the best results at the moment are the boys with zero deer and on some estates low blue hare no's too.

  7. #7
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    Millden 3,000 brace of grouse and no days cancelled and a brace of something else

    Invermark 2,650 brace of grouse 4 days cancelled due to hill fog

  8. #8
    This is a subject I feel quite strongly on and I tend not to get dragged into discussions about it as both sides (Deer and Grouse) think they are right and the argument/discussion just goes back and forth.

    What I will say is that there is a now a generation of Grouse lads coming into the game that think that Deer are just tick carrying vermin and THAT is a sad day!
    There is a place on this planet for all of God's creatures, right next to my tatties and gravy!!!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    It has already been proved that building a big fence and shooting all the deer is the answer to reviving grouse numbers.

    The Angus glens are proof of this most estates built fences and shot out the deer.

    Did it work, well not until this year did the grouse number revive.

    However one of the estates Invermark that did not murder the deer had a good as grouse numbers as the ones who have not deer for the last few years.

    The dipping of sheep seems to be the answer not the verminising of Red Deer
    The difference with Invermark is that it has altitude.

    Dan this is not new, most grouse moors in the east of Scotland did not tolerate deer until the 70's. Deer carry tick, tick carry louping ill, if you are not interested in deer then why tolerate them? Sheep mops ONLY work when deer numbers are low.

    Grouse moors are just that and are not deer forests, the only places that can entertain both have altitude. I have seen only too often the way tick numbers [caused by relatively high deer & hare densities] have wiped out grouse stocks. If you are employed to provide grouse shooting what do you do?
    Do shepherds tolerate foxes? it'snot verminising it's management to aid you objective

    It is not deer vs grouse, it is about your objectives and it always has done.

    I remember old Geordie Oswald telling me that he would stand on every grouse egg he found as the damm things ruined many a stalk!!!!

    Far too many people sit back and slate the way grouse moors for their treatment of deer, most of wholm have nothing to do with the industry. The new bred of grouse keepers that have come in in the last 15 years have been a breath of fresh air to what was a failing industry in Scotland and I take my hat of to them as they have shown what can be done with hard work and innovative thinking.

  10. #10
    I understand some of what you are saying, Ive worked on a grouse moor but what Im getting at is the MANY estates that have traditionally had both Deer AND Grouse but decide to erradicate the Deer and Hares to get that all important bird in numbers, a couple of bad hatching and they are left with f**k all! You cant control the weather.

    There is a balance where you can have all 3 should the ground dictate.

    Ah bugger, Im being dragged

    T'ra.
    Last edited by Dan Gliballs; 24-02-2011 at 20:49.
    There is a place on this planet for all of God's creatures, right next to my tatties and gravy!!!

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